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Unread 10-17-2013, 08:15 PM   #1
joejustjoe
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Hello, Im new to the forum and have been reading the invaluable experiences of others, this site seems like a good safe place to talk about recovery issues associated with suboxone. I myself have a long history of opiate addiction which involved the full spectrum of pain killers, opium and heroin, but never by injection (intense fear of needles) but with me, like others, the delivery method of the opiate does not change the end results which was at first relief from the pain of disc herniations and ruptures, and then secondly, outright addiction. I Have been on suboxone for 2+ years now and I am actively engaged on a AMA taper. Im curious to know if anyone has tried Kratom? The kratom is useless while on suboxone because the receptors are all fully blocked up. I was at 6 mg per day of film and now I am down to between 2-3 mg per day. I went from 6mg to 3mg over the course of July, August and September and had no ill effects but, as it seems for many others, the hard part comes at dropping down to and below 2 mg. Im trying to take the next 4-5 weeks to be down to .5 mg per day. And then .25 and .125 per day for a least 5-7 days at each level and then jumping off. Exercise is getting tougher with cold weather coming on. I have no other meds involved but I have some trazadone to help for a few days after the real jump from .125 mg to zero. Does anyone else have experience using Kratom ? A close friend recommended it to me but it is not an easy thing to find on the internet and local healthfood stores look at me like I am from Mars when asking for it.
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Unread 10-18-2013, 07:13 AM   #2
gotoffmdone
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Since April Kratom cannot be delivered to Tennesse. The state legislature and the gov signed a bill into law banning it. Actually the countries where the tree that contain the leave are grown in consider it illegal depending on how you are using/making it. They are actually chopping down the trees.

I have tried Kratom and its the worst tasting stuff I have put in my mouth. And the return on the investment is not all that good for people who have used rx opiates. I hear it works great for some but they are not people who have had a significant drug habit. If I am not mistaken Kratom is considered a partial opiate. People in the countries where the trees grown do have a problem with addiction to Kratom(can't spell the scientific botony name just now).

I know some people including myself who has ordered it to see if it would tamper down their Sub wds or other wds. To me it is less strong than a Tylenol 3 and codiene is a full agonist. Personally I think it is w aste of money unless you get the leaves and boil them in some for of Tea. It is awful tasting as I said and for those of us who have taken opiates of anykind with any regularity will be sdisappointed.

I suppose the gov, at least at some state levels, deem it enough of an opiate to outright ban it and those that sell it will not send it to those states. I canot imagine this taking up any of the resources of the DEA. Nor do I know what would happen if they sent it to a stae that has banned it. My guess is nothing much . Maybe a fine to the company and to the purchaser. I do not even think it has been given a DEA classification number. Tennesses look at it as just another weed that is bad for you. And it may very well be. A lot of people order it and take it. I just never could get past the taste and it never did a thing for me.

Go to any Kratom website and the are explicit about their product NOT being used for human consumption. Its advertised more as a form of incense even they know good well people are ingesting it. They will even speak to you about the ways of going about the different forms it comes in and how to take it. But their website is the total opposite of what they know to be the real reason people but it.

Personally I think it is pure junk for folks like us. It may produce a buzz of sorts or give them energy for those folks with no real history of opiate abuse but then that leads me to why they would be looking the Kratom up in the first place. My guess is word of mouth like most things.

My advice is spend your money on a massage or something. It will relax you more. It is amazing how stuff used for every day medication has come largley from plants that grow naturally. The pharmaceutical companies take the basic molecular structure, tweet it in some lab and wallah, you now have semi synthetic oxys or hydros or morphine all of which is more potent and legal than a lot of the drugs from which they were made.

Sub and methadone, the fully synthetic manmade in a lab opioids that have a long halflife and a long drawn out wd period is the synthesising of the natural molucule. Man can take natural substances meant to be less harmful, spend time in a lab and come out the other side with something that doesn't even resemble what they started with.

Whether it is for the military or for the pharmaceutical industry nature gives us what we need. Depending on how we use it nature can also give man the means by which we can destroy ourselves from without or within. The bark of a Willow Tree was given to women in labor caused it seemed to ease their pain and even given for fever in the sick. Good thing the gov never banned that tree or cut them down, else we would not have salicylic acid, your basic Aspirin.

They have Kratom leaves, Kratom extracts and so on. All made from a tiny leaf from a certain tree. It has caused problems of addiction in the areas where they have access to the leaves because those people have not flooded their opiate receptors with much stronger manmade opiates. For us, Kratom is a waste of time. At least it was for me.

I would like to know what lead to Tenn banning the drug. They don't really monitor or enforce it well just the law scared away the vendors. But I wonder how many vendors ae willing to disguise the package. To me Kratom is not much of a drug and I would never spend another cent on it. Its not worth the effort.

And apparantly something happened. The suppliers are clear about it not being used for human consumption. That wording almost asures it will be consumed. Maybe the ER had Kratom cases from young people show up. I have no idea based on what i have seen from my own experience, as a benign leaf garnering all the attention it did to make the Tenn legislature take it on as an issue.

Personally I would not recommend it, especially if used to help get thru a period of detox. But I have had drugs a lot more potent than Kratom extract for a lot of years, so Kratom never had any chance at gaining a receptor hold on me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa all it talks about in the beginning is the mu receptor but seems I read somewhere it was a partional agonist much like Sub

wayne

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Unread 10-19-2013, 06:05 AM   #3
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A very warm welcome from the UK to you joejustjoe. Is your name Joe by any chance? Best wishes.

Hi Wayne.
Thanks for that very informative post. I enjoy reading your thoughts. May I just say that I have read that buprenorphine is actually a semi-synthetic drug? That is cos its partly derived from Thebaine from the opiate poppy, then togther with a synthetic element as you say. Hmmm, scary really. Yeah, nature has all the medicines we really need. Totally agree, once the 'lab' gets their hands on nature. Shit, look out carefully. Hmmm again. And once we get our mits on the 'lab' drugs, nature ain gotta chance in hell.

Good weekend matey. How's the detox?

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Unread 10-19-2013, 11:12 AM   #4
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semi synthetic drugs are drugs like hydrocodone and oxycodone. Its partially natural and partialy manmade which is what synthetic means(mad has had their hands on it in a lab). They can take a natural plant and mess with the molecular stucture and make it stronger. I am sure there are others.

Sub and Methadone are fully synthetic and have been made to be have a long halflife. Methadone is at or about the top of the ladder when it comes to pain relief. It doesn't really get you high unless you are a novice opiate user but is very dangerous when mixed with other downers like benzos or even some OTC drugs. I took it with benedryl onece long after I had been on it and it messed me up.

I have no idea how or what they mae the partial agonist opiate Sub out of but it is mad in a lab and is synthetic not semi synthetic. How they came up with a partial opiate and at the same time one that can displace any other opiate from your opiate receptors throwing you in precip wds I have no clue. Since it agonistic to only one of the opiate receptors and fools the other into thinking it has an opiate on it and has a failrly small ceiling effect I have no idea how or what they started with in the lab when they made the drug. Some people are under the impression the Sub is 50 times stronger than morphine. For pain its not but for its affinity to the opiate receptors it surely is. That is why I was able to take 10 years worth of the very strong full agonist methadone and without being in any wds take 6 mgs of Sub and have it to kick my butt. It may be a partial opiate but there was nothing partial about precipitated wds.

Kratom IMO would be a waste of time for any of us. Some people swear by its effects but IMO they are playing with fire and for those that say that, their drug history is a mystery.

wayne
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Unread 10-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #5
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Sub and Methadone are fully synthetic
Hi Wayne, bupe, as Leo said, is semi-synthetic:

http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=2

Buprenorphine ('bū-pre-'nr-fēn) (C29H41NO4) is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from thebaine, an alkaloid of the poppy Papaver somniferum...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15966752
Buprenorphine is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from thebaine, a naturally occurring alkaloid of the opium poppy, Papaver somniferum. The pharmacology of buprenorphine is unique in that it is a partial agonist at the opioid mu receptor. Buprenorphine undergoes extensive first-pass metabolism and therefore has very low oral bioavailability; however, its bioavailability sublingually is extensive enough to make this a feasible route of administration for the treatment of opioid dependence. The mean time to maximum plasma concentration following sublingual administration is variable, ranging from 40 minutes to 3.5 hours. Buprenorphine has a large volume of distribution and is highly protein bound (96%). It is extensively metabolised by N-dealkylation to norbuprenorphine primarily through cytochrome P450 (CYP) 3A4. The terminal elimination half-life of buprenorphine is long and there is considerable variation in reported values (mean values ranging from 3 to 44 hours). Most of a dose of buprenorphine is eliminated in the faeces, with approximately 10-30% excreted in urine. Naloxone has been added to a sublingual formulation of buprenorphine to reduce the abuse liability of the product. The presence of naloxone does not appear to influence the pharmacokinetics of buprenorphine. Buprenorphine crosses the placenta during pregnancy and also crosses into breast milk. Buprenorphine dosage does not need to be significantly adjusted in patients with renal impairment; however, since CYP3A activity may be decreased in patients with severe chronic liver disease, it is possible that the metabolism of buprenorphine will be altered in these patients. Although there is limited evidence in the literature to date, drugs that are known to inhibit or induce CYP3A4 have the potential to diminish or enhance buprenorphine N-dealkylation. It appears that the interaction between buprenorphine and benzodiazepines is more likely to be a pharmacodynamic (additive or synergistic) than a pharmacokinetic interaction. The relationship between buprenorphine plasma concentration and response in the treatment of opioid dependence has not been well studied. The pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic properties of buprenorphine allow it to be a feasible option for substitution therapy in the treatment of opioid dependence.


But methadone is, as you noted, synthetic:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/r.../methadone.htm
Methadone is a synthetic narcotic analgesic and is a schedule II controlled substance.

Hope that helps.

Nancy
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Unread 10-21-2013, 05:53 AM   #6
gotoffmdone
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I mised that one, thanks Nancy. I used to think Methadone and Darvocet used to be made from the opium alkaloid Thebaine. I was surprised to learn Sub was semi synthetic. Never gave it much thought, just assumed and you know what they say about assuming. With the internet these days assuming it totally a waste of time.


"A thebaine drug is a drug that is derived from the opium alkaloid Thebaine to put it simply. Drugs like Naltrexone, Naloxone, Buprenorphine (Suboxone) are called Thebaine derivatives because during the production process, Thebaine is the starting product. Even commercial Oxycodone is made from Thebaine. I did not know that the codones were made from Thebaine.

A better way to classify drugs actually would be by their activity at various receptors ie. whether it behaves as an agonist at a receptor or as an antagonist.)

You can't compare Buprenorphine (Suboxone) to anything else since no other drug has a similar profile to it (at least no other drug on the commercial market. In research we have a few). It acts as a partial agonist at the Mu-Opioid-Receptor and a full antagonist at the Kappa-Opioid-Receptor."


I know when Methadone was made but not how. I know it had a lot to do with WWII and the German's needing pain medication on the battle field. I can imagine they were cut off to virtually anything to do with the world outside Germany and had to make due. They were some vicous folk but there were some very smart scientist in their country. Einstien got out in time. I cannot recall his name but our entie space program was due to one Rocket Man who the USA grabbed up after the war and put his knowledge to go use. Making Methadone was most likely a neat enterprise. And its long halflife and anlagesic effect was a huge plus.

"Kratom behaves as a μ-opioid receptor agonist like morphine[4] and is used in the management of chronic pain, as well as recreationally.[5] Kratom use is not detected by typical drug screening tests, but its metabolites can be detected by more specialized testing.[6][7] The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans, including its efficacy and safety, are not well-studied.[4] Most side effects of kratom are thought to be mild, although isolated serious adverse effects such as psychosis, convulsions, hallucinations, and confusion have been reported rarely.[3] Chronic use of M. speciosa has been associated with bowel obstruction, and the plant carries the potential for addiction and can lead to withdrawal symptoms.[3] Several case reports document deaths involving kratom, either alone or in combination with other drugs "

I have a friend who has a Ph.D in neuropharmacology. He used to work in the pharmaceutical industry coming up with methods to take drugs. I do not think he worked on coming up with new drugs just on the delivery methods to use them to their max effect. I am not sure if they start with how they wish it to be used and work backwards from there. Or if they come up with a drug and by default find the way it's best used.

Now he his over the lab at Vanderbilt Hospital and all he does is research and publish articles. Very smart guy. He has authored 9 articles and was the contributing author on various others. He is very interesting to talk too. I have a measly BS in Chemistry and like 6 classes having a MS in Statistics(which as you know is huge in research) and if I am lucky I can grasp about every fith word he says.

If you get a chance, look up David Weaver, i.e., Vanderbuilt University. I never asked him if a neuropharmacologists had to be a pharmacist but my guess is no since they deal in the realm of research, and not retail or in- hospital dispensing of drugs. His job is to find ways to help mgf the drug and delivery procedure to use it in various ways or, like Sub, in one way. He also comes up with techniques on how to test for certain drug's metabolites. Something we have all been interested in at some point in our lives.

wayne

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Unread 10-24-2013, 07:33 PM   #7
joejustjoe
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Thank you for all the replies. One responder offered that Kratom is just not for people like us. However, that contradicts that fact that everyones recovery journey is different. I have an awesome respect for Suboxone but after being on it for 2 years, I feel like I am just as trapped as I was by the old opiates that I used for pain relief which ultimately cost me an 8+ year addiction. Now, after 2 years of suboxone, I am stable and dropping off but my thoughts have changed. I wish to be free of all opiates including suboxone, seeing continued treatment with it as being no different than giving vodka to someone who is addicted to gin. And suboxone use reinforced the self medicating paradigm that was my addiction. I have found some decent suppliers of kratom and it has helped immensely in stabilizing under 2mg per day because I want to stick to my dose reduction regimen and not feel like I need to increase the bupe dose because of a bad day. Once I make the jump to zero in about 4-5 weeks from now, kratom will be there for me to reduce any residual cravings without thinking of going back to - the old way which failed miserably.
One question to all concerned: did you ever ask your doctor for some studies to the long term effects of suboxone use ? I have found some information that reveals suboxone is just as damaging as plain old opiates to the dopamine pathways in the brain and that suboxone may cause in some people, permanent damage to the dopamine receptor pathways in the brain, which results in extremely bad bouts of depression once the dosing is ceased.
Im just praying I can make a clean jump, but after a 2 year dependency on suboxone and exerting full efforts to rebuild my life after hitting some low bottoms, Im scared. The job market has not been friendly at all to me and self employment is not yielding sufficent income to be realistic to continue. I simply do not have the financial resources to continue suboxone treatment so the decision was made to taper. I attend meetings but Im not the shining example of someone who, in sobriety, got a life back that is second to none. There are some problems in life that cannot be fixed, simply by being sober and praying. My higher power apparently is not well versed in how to tackle a very challenging employment market after 2+ years of unemployment and savings are now exhausted to zero.

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Unread 10-24-2013, 07:49 PM   #8
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I researched the ban in Tennessee and found that the legislation to ban kratom was written by a lobbying think tank, and drafted for one reason and one reason only - to protect the interests of a very powerful drug company. Kratom is not an opiate. By the same token, everyone on this planet responds differently to the various compounds, including those compounds passed to us through the food and water supply. Therefore, kratom is not for everyone, but dont you think its more imporant to have the choice to use it rather than have that choice taken away ? Its just like Obamacare, forced down the throats of an unsuspecting public which is now subject to fines and penalties for making any effort to opt out. In the final analysis, kratom can be a tool for recovery if used responsibly and I would like to think that 2 years of suboxone therapy has made me a little more careful about what I put in myself. One must retain the ability to think critically in order to maintain sobriety because the decisions made while not sober are what landed us as members of the society of those in recovery.
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Unread 10-25-2013, 11:22 AM   #9
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... I have an awesome respect for Suboxone but after being on it for 2 years, I feel like I am just as trapped as I was by the old opiates that I used for pain relief which ultimately cost me an 8+ year addiction. Now, after 2 years of suboxone, I am stable and dropping off but my thoughts have changed. I wish to be free of all opiates including suboxone, seeing continued treatment with it as being no different than giving vodka to someone who is addicted to gin. And suboxone use reinforced the self medicating paradigm that was my addiction. ... I need to increase the bupe dose because of a bad day. ...One question to all concerned: did you ever ask your doctor for some studies to the long term effects of suboxone use ? I have found some information that reveals suboxone is just as damaging as plain old opiates to the dopamine pathways in the brain and that suboxone may cause in some people, permanent damage to the dopamine receptor pathways in the brain, which results in extremely bad bouts of depression once the dosing is ceased..
Hi Joe,
This is a common misunderstanding of bupe treatment and one that could lead to bad decisions. We need to analyze exactly what the problem is (addiction) and what the treatment is supposed to do to understand why it isn’t simply a lateral move from illegal addiction to legal addiction. Once you see it this way, it will change the way you look at it and your decisions going forward.

The problem, addiction, is a compulsive disorder. Biological changes in the brain cause cravings which influence behavior. It is the consequences from the craving-driven behavior that makes addiction a bad thing. Taking a daily medication, even if withdrawal occurs in its absence, is a manageable inconvenience and has little negative impact on quality of life. The focus of treatment is to stop the cravings and to reverse their cause.

Patients stable in buprenorphine treatment, don’t have cravings and thus don’t experience negative consequences from craving-influenced behaviors. Meanwhile people in active addiction to other opioids continually repeat the craving/reward cycle that systematically destroys their lives. The addiction (uncontrollable cravings prompting compulsive drug use) is essentially in remission while stable in bupe treatment. With cravings and withdrawal suppressed, the patients can begin to change behavior. This is the key stage because it’s the changes in behavior which has a biological affect on the brain and diminishes some of the craving-causing brain changes of addiction.

During this period of changing behavior, some of the tolerance to opioids is maintained (since bupe is an opioid itself) but this is manageable and eventually resolved with a slow taper. It’s import to understand that the acute withdrawal experienced when abruptly stopping opioids, is not the addiction, its physical dependence. Once you see the difference it becomes clear that while stable on bupe, signs and symptoms of addiction are suppressed, while physical dependence is maintained. Some addictions such as methamphetamine, cocaine, or gambling have no physical dependence, hence no acute withdrawal, but are still serious addictions.

If bupe treatment was the same as giving vodka to someone who is addicted to gin, then patients would not have control of their bupe use, would crave bupe, and would take bupe despite doing harm to themselves or others, none of which we see in stable patients. Although It is possible to become addicted to bupe, it is rare especially under a doctor’s care.

Bupe shares many of the characteristics of other opioids but usually to a lesser degree. Likewise longterm effects are thought to be the same as other opioids but to a lesser degree. For this reason, we always say the correct dose is the lowest dose which is still effective. But long-term effects need to be looked at in context of the alternative. If we are comparing a life with no medication and no addiction against a life with buprenorphine, the side effects and long-term unknowns would make bupe an unnecessary risk. But nobody is saying that an otherwise healthy person who is not addicted take bupe. Instead, it is indicated for those with existing opioid addictions. So we need to compare the longterm risks of active opioid addiction against the longterm risk of bupe. In that context, with the known risks of active addiction likely death, the known risks of bupe are clearly the prudent choice. The only people who should be on bupe are those who would relapse without it, and for them clearly the benefits outweigh the risk.

As far as depression goes, the evidence indicates that bupe is more of an antidepressant than a cause of depression. Currently there are a few companies studying bupe as an anti-depressant and may have a drug on the market in a few years.

Here are some links that take this further and provide sources if you are interested in reading more:
http://www.naabt.org/purpose_of_buprenorphine.cfm
http://www.naabt.org/documents/the_e..._addiction.pdf
http://www.naabt.org/addiction_physical-dependence.cfm


Tim

One more link:
Is buprenorphine treatment just trading one addiction for another?
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Unread 10-26-2013, 08:27 AM   #10
gotoffmdone
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Tim

IMO The reason Sub gets the bad rap it does from long time users(however ones defines long term) is because it has wd syndrome. Addicted folk tend to take drugs for one reason, not to have to go through wds. By a certain point you have to take your DOC to feel normal. So absent the getting high why would a person do the things they do to to get their drug. To forego wds plain and simple so they feel "normal". Now that we deal with wds when we quit Sub it is so easy to lump it in with all the other drugs and forget its true, orinal purpose. It becomes just another drug we feel trapped into taking. And the cost cetainly doesn't help. Its similar to Methadone. I never met a single person who was happy with their decision to go on Methadone after about a year, when at the beginning they thought it was a Godsend. Methadone and Sub are day and night diferrent but wds are wds and I belive that is where Sub gets it bad rap. I for one have to admit I took it to try to help with pain because I can not control full agonist and I have a tolerance that is out of this world. I have lashed out against Sub being a Sub-stitue for other opiates and wish I had not started it many times after trying to get off of it. I never really used it the way it was meant, as a drug to take till you excise some demons and get your shi* together. If you are taking it to avoid wds you often find too much being taken and people become aggravated that they cannot lay it down. I was on opiates like oxy and hydro for ten yrs then Methadone at about 5 times the normal dose for ten years prior to getting on Sub. Methadone stopped my wds but I took Sub too soon and it precip my Methadone wds. I took it way longer than I should and I knew it when i was taking it. It took a few trys over 7 yrs to say enough was enough and finally feel that I can take Sub or leave it. I rarely think about it or any other opiate. As far as the full agonist, even Methadone, I cannot recall the last time I craved them. But I took Sub for 7 years and to be honest cannot give anyone a legitimate reason as to why. If you do as I did and take Sub they way i did, in effect you impeded in recovery oriented progress.

wayne
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Unread 10-26-2013, 03:41 PM   #11
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I will give you my first hand experience with kratom. It was what got me on sub 7 years ago. I had read that it was not addictive but using it every day for a few weeks/months (dont remember) I was definitely addicted. I went to rehab for heroin addiction 20 years ago so I knew what I was experiencing. Maybe in small doses it could ease w/d's but I would be very careful with it. Im 4 days off subs and the most helpful thing for me has been immodium (about 10 to 15 caplets a day) and clonidine good luck to you.
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Unread 11-24-2013, 10:07 PM   #12
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Hi Tim
I disagree with you on a point you made about control. There are some rare addicts who can use their drug of choice with some considerable degree of precision and control. I was a functional opiate addict for over 8 years. I held down 2 jobs and I had a high income. The important issue here is repair of brain chemistry. That repair is simply not taking place on suboxone which is 25-45 times the potency of morphine. I have been on suboxone for 2 years now and my doctor never told me the longer I took it the progressively harder it would be to taper. I should have started my taper at the one year point…at that time I had already made an honest 4th and 5th step with a great sponsor and I was making amends with those I harmed.
Quick update on my taper: I'm doing ok. I have dropped from 6mg per day peak in June to 1.25 Mg per day. I have been dropping about point two five Mg per week but the last few drops I have used low dose kratom to help the digging feeling I get in the back of my skull and sleep has not come easy but exercise and eating right with proper supplementation has helped. I'm realizing just how fogged out and emotionless the suboxone was making me. There is a better existence for this addict with the only regret being I chose to take on 2 years of maintenance instead of the one year I had originally planned on. Peace n love to all.
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Unread 11-24-2013, 10:21 PM   #13
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Hi, Tim I agree with you and the analogy of giving someone gin instead of vodka, is in my opinion about the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard. You give a man vodka, he'll get drunk. He give a man gin, he'll get drunk. You give an addict herion, hydros, etc., he will get high and chase that high endlessly. You give an addict/dependent person subs they will not get high and they will be given the chance to get their life back. If someone feels they can function while taking drugs, keep their jobs, make lots of money, etc., then they don't subs or this forum. I am sorry, many of us functioned for a long time while on our DOC, but eventually it came to a screaming halt. People moan and groan how bad they are doing and once on subs how grateful they are, but the friggin' tables turn and suboxone is all of a sudden the devil.

FINE - for those who feel suboxone is making their life miserable, etc., go back on opiates and taper from them. People, we can't have it both ways. Write a gratitude list, get honest with yourself and stop the whining. I know for sure what the long term of full agnostic opiate is use is: misery, failure, no money, lies, etc. Oh and death for some. If you want off suboxone, go through the withdrawal and then be done! Julie
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Unread 11-24-2013, 10:22 PM   #14
joejustjoe
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Hey eden
Just wondering how you are doing in your first month sans subset medication. I am jumping in about a month after a very long slow taper. I have def had wd symptoms during my taper but I have read that this is not uncommon and I have acted accordingly to counter wd's without resorting to any kind of opiate keeping in mind kratom does not fit the definition of a true opiate and is a close relative of the coffee plant. Did anyone know that caffeine binds to some of the opiate receptors in the body and brain? This explains how kratom works in some respects.
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Unread 11-24-2013, 10:44 PM   #15
julie48
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Hi, Tim I agree with you and the analogy of giving someone gin instead of vodka, is in my opinion about the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard. You give a man vodka, he'll get drunk. He give a man gin, he'll get drunk. You give an addict herion, hydros, etc., he will get high and chase that high endlessly. You give an addict/dependent person subs they will not get high and they will be given the chance to get their life back. If someone feels they can function while taking drugs, keep their jobs, make lots of money, etc., then they don't subs or this forum. I am sorry, many of us functioned for a long time while on our DOC, but eventually it came to a screaming halt. People moan and groan how bad they are doing and once on subs how grateful they are, but the friggin' tables turn and suboxone is all of a sudden the devil.

FINE - for those who feel suboxone is making their life miserable, etc., go back on opiates and taper from them. People, we can't have it both ways. Write a gratitude list, get honest with yourself and stop the whining. I know for sure what the long term of full agnostic opiate is use is: misery, failure, no money, lies, etc. Oh and death for some. If you want off suboxone, go through the withdrawal and then be done! Julie
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Unread 11-25-2013, 11:05 AM   #16
TIM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joejustjoe View Post
Hi Tim
I disagree with you on a point you made about control. There are some rare addicts who can use their drug of choice with some considerable degree of precision and control. I was a functional opiate addict for over 8 years. I held down 2 jobs and I had a high income. The important issue here is repair of brain chemistry. That repair is simply not taking place on suboxone which is 25-45 times the potency of morphine. I have been on suboxone for 2 years now and my doctor never told me the longer I took it the progressively harder it would be to taper. I should have started my taper at the one year point…
That’s not an argument against my position but rather part of what I’m saying. Most people who are prescribed opioids exhibit control over their opioid use and never develop the uncontrollable compulsions of addiction. Less than 10% actually become addicted. It’s contradictory to call someone an “addict” who has control of their opioid use and doesn’t take it compulsively. They are not addicted. Nobody is saying non-addicted people should start addiction treatment. If you are saying that someone who is not addicted should forego addiction treatment I agree 100%.

A “functioning addict” is a contradictory misnomer. The definition of addiction consists of a loss of control and the inability to function normally. What you have described is what I was trying to differentiate in my post, the difference between physical dependence and addiction. Someone who has control of their opioid use, does not take it compulsively and is not doing harm to one’s self or others, is not addicted, but merely physically dependent. This can be true with legally prescribed opioids or heroin, because making a drug illegal doesn’t change its properties. Anyone who could simply taper off the opioid they are taking, should do that, they are not appropriate for buprenorphine treatment (or any addiction treatment).

As best as I can gather from your post, your position is- that someone who is not addicted will not benefit from addiction treatment- I say no kidding. This conversation highlights how important understanding what addiction is and what the purpose of addiction treatment is.


A couple points about facts:
The 20-50 times figure, is often misinterpreted and only applies at very low doses (0.3mgs) far below what is normally taken daily for addiction treatment. At higher doses morphine becomes more potent. This figure is misleading and irrelevant in the context of addiction treatment.

The reason your doctor didn’t tell you that the longer you are on bupe the harder it is to get off, is because it’s not true. The evidence shows that when dosed correctly, tolerance doesn’t increase but actually decreases in some (which is why most patients decrease their dose over time). If the time in treatment is spent changing behavior in a positive way, the taper experience can be far less uncomfortable than if buprenorphine was never used.

To understand buprenorphine treatment you need to understand the difference between physical dependence and addiction, it is critical. Once you do, all of the points you made and the apparent contradictions you see now will all become clear. I urge you to reread my post above and the links in that post.


Tim
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Last edited by TIM; 12-18-2013 at 09:21 AM..
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Unread 11-26-2013, 05:00 AM   #17
gotoffmdone
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If you have plenty of money and acess to your drug of choice it becomes hard to see the forrest for the trees.

I have always been of the opinion that a person never really knows just how addicted they are(and yes it can even be Sub IMO) until they wake up one morning with no money to buy drugs or plenty of money but no drugs. By the own defintion of addiction...the continued use despite negative consequences.... a person who has daily access and the means to afford their drug of choice, seems to me dy definition that person is only dependent.

But negative consequences come in many forms. Even with a person's opiate of choice, use long enough and you cannot help but change and not for the better. The negative consequence could be some family and friends finding out your secret and you lose their respect. Vey few of us walk arounf thinking of addiction as a brain disease. The closet I cam was when I realized that will power has gotten me to a lot of good successful places. But when it come to waking up and telling myself today is the day I stop, my pretty significant willpower played no role whatsoever. I knew something was wrong but i remained in the beating myself up mode for crapping all over my life, that I considered the addiction demon living inside of me was there because i voluntarily asked him to come in and make ourself comfortable for as long as you want. I had plans and goals for my life. Like the famous Yogi Berra said once, "When you come to a fork in the road take it". Well I did just that without using my head only my emotions and when you are on drugs(even a few rx drugs) your emotions are the last thing that you need to allow yourself to follow. Had I been smart i would have found a great friend and talked things out but that would have meant telling my dirty little secret and I already was eat up with guit ans shame. I kept thinking I would stop and I did so many time right up to the point of peaking but never having gone thru detox before I did not know I was at the beginning of the end of wds, else I would have taken a couple days off work and finish the thing. My job was my sanctuary and that could have been my lifesaver, that and maybe attending some outpatient program. I could have learned about addiction as a whole which would have made me understand my dad and myself rather than judge. Addiction may be a disease and my brain may light up a PET Scan I don't know. But once you get a taste of recovery it will screw up your fututre using as in it never feels quite right. Recovery is a choice for which a lot of us do not have because we cannot get past the detox phase. Make that available to users and not prohibitively costly and you will see less jail over crowding and the money saved could be put into the school system or going after the king pins. I know for a fact given the will do do so, this country could handle its drug crises. Sent a man to the moon, developed the atomic bomb saw the futility in prohibition because were there is a demand they will be a supply. If we were not so uppity and self centered and would take cues from other countries that have shown some success(and in their case success is not measured in how many people cops arrest on their shift) they may find that taking back and economically revitalizing the inner cities are a possibility and not a lost cause. But the guys have to get their ass out of Washington and their noises out of the butts of their donors.

At this point in my life it would do me know good to get the results of a brain scan to learn even more bad and depressing news. The only good that may come from it would be to show a slide presntation to a younger generation. But there are so many choices these days. Rx drugs, natural herbs like pot and kratom and then there are these designer drugs. Sub addresses one category. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. What is there for those adicted to non opiates.

wayne
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