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Unread 12-19-2007, 06:10 PM   #1
NancyB
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Default People who have tapered off

Hi, thought I'd gather together some threads/posts of some in our community who've tapered off. Sorry if I forgot anyone.
And wil, thank you for the idea.
Hope you and JT are doing well.

Nancy

Ros & Mary
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=12404

Gwen
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=13664
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by gwen

hello all, i see some familiar 'faces' and a lot of new ones. i guess i'm one of those who have tapered off and don't post much any more. well, actually not since the early winter. i successfully tapered off in may, going down to .5 alternating days and then stretching it out and just off. i had some discomfort, but nothing that i would say horrible. a little insomnia, stomach ills, restless legs. i took clonidine for a day or two, lunesta for a week. other than that, not much to write home about. i had a family member fall quite ill, thankfully he's in remission from cancer now, and i had just a fleeting thought or two about how it would be nice to 'get away', but the thoughts of reason came quickly and i soon realized that i would never want to put either myself or my loving family through that again.
Emma
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=13213

bam55:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=13538
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=13576

fegbri
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...=12821&page=17
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by fegbri

Hey guys! Just wanted to give you an update. Sorry I haven;t posted, but the carzy thing is I have been busy LIVING LIFE!! I have been off sub for 3 months now. Not one single symptom! I sleep great, feel great, and have such a happy attitude! After 4-5 years of opiates, and 80 days on sub, I am finally back to normal. I got to AA meetings every week or so. The most important thing is to NEVER forget how horrible I felt because of these drugs. ANYONE can do this. You have to have a taper program in place and LISTEN to your body. Thanks again for all your help.
Brian
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...=12821&page=17

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by fegbri

Kiki, the best thing to do is not go completely off, just increase your intervals between doses. After 1 week on .5, I started taking very 36 hours, then 48 hours, then 3 days, then after about 1.5 weeks, I made it wil NO WD's AT ALL! I think this is what Stacey did as well. No reason to suffer when you don;t have to. I have been off sub for 3 months now, feeling GREAT! Good luck!
Stacey (Post dated 6/15/07)
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15081
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Stacey

I was on .5 for quite a while then went to .5 alt with .25---obviously these doses are impossible to do accurately so I just guessed and was not worried about the actual number. At the end of the day it really didnt matter, I was decreasing my dose and was very comfortable doing it. I then started doing every other day at about .25 or .5 and then at Christmas morning I realized it had been a few days since my last 'dust dose' and decided to continue with no sub. I'm still waiting for the withdralwal to start. It was easy. A little bit of sneezing but who knows?? It could have been allergies. I had restless legs for two evenings and that subsided. I used benadryl to help sleep. No problem. It's been more than six months now and life is good.
William
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...=12085&page=27

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by kiltman64

Hi Everyone,
It has been awhile since I had a chance to write. School is very busy and the first semester is drawing to a close. I wanted to share my experience with tapering off suboxone with the people who had helped me so much with my addiction and finding the thing (sub) that helped me stop using opiates. Tapering off the sub was my biggest worry, and as I had read many times from others that fear was shared. I took myself down by a 1/4 dose every 7 days (under my doctors care) until I was off completely. About three days after stopping I felt like I had the flu (run down, tired, insomnia and upset stomach). I went back to my doctor and he put me on .50mg (cut a 2mg in 4) for another seven days and that did the trick. It is amazing how powerful the sub is and a low dose can make all the difference. I have been sub free for over 2 weeks now and I feel normal. I wanted to share this with everyone because there is so little reliable info on someone actually stopping the sub. I have not had any cravings for opiates and I hope I am entering a new (drug free) chapter in my life. I am going to type the next sentence in all caps because I want everyone to hear this! AFTER YEARS OF OPIATE ADDICTION I COULD NEVER HAVE STOPPED IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR SUBOXONE AND ALL THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE AT THIS SUPPORT SITE! BLESS EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU THAT TOOK AN INTEREST IN ME AND HELPED! I will try to get on again soon and I would be glad to answer any questions about my tapering experience if it would help.
Your Pal who is forever in your debt,
William

Mike
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=19481


MakHit
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14354

Dennis
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16058

brchad
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14583

Billyzack
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...=12821&page=17

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Billyzack

I haven't logged on to this site since quitting sub in January and if there is anyone that remembers me. I was going to try to go to 1 mg and off after that in January. I did go to 1 mg from 2 mgs with absolutely no problems and by pure accident, I dropped from 1 mg to nothing. My docgtor prescribed me some blood pressure medicine and the pills looked exactly like 2 mg subs, I thought I was taking 1 ms and was taking nothing. After a week, I realized what I had been doing and I felt great so I threw the sub away and have been fine since. Don't know if the placebo effect was in place but all I felt was a bit tired but no biggie. All in all, I went from being a 7 year hydro addict to 8 mg sub to nothing in about 60 days. I took percocet when I had some dental work last months for 3 days and have been fine since. I don't know where I would get opiates even if I was craving them so I soon forget about them when I begin to think about them. Sub was a good thing for me and it did what it was supposed to do, I never felt bad or had any problems getting off of it. Good luck everyone!
Kbee00 (misery thread)
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp...1&whichpage=13
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by kbee00

Hi Connie -

It's me - kbee - I haven't been on the board in quite a while but for some reason I was thinking of you guys this morning so I'd thought I'd pop in to say hi! Hope all is well with you and that your journey is taking you where you really want to go. As for me - life has gotten a thousand times better since I began on Sub - almost exactly one year ago - it's amazing how much has happened since then. I've completely tapered off and it was not bad at all - in fact looking back on it, it was 99% mental and 1%physical. I just got fed up with being tied to a pill and once I made up my mind, the rest was easy. I am wishing for you the same good luck I had. Please take care and be well.

All the best.

kbee
jwfk
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15407

beginagain
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15574

LT
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15088

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by wil

Jaden posted,

"... If you taper off slowly, the initial withdrawals are less severe. Regardless, once everything is out of your system, you face anywhere from a few weeks to 6 months or more of fatigue, difficulty sleeping, loss of appetite, radical mood swings, depression, muscle spasms, etc. This occurs AFTER the main acute withdrawals, hence the term POST-ACUTE WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS, or PAWS."

Jaden, I'm confused, my gf, JT, jumped from Sub several weeks ago. She had been taking Sub for 9 months, during which she slowly, very slowly tapered to .5 mg or less and jumped with virtually no problems. Several weeks later she still has no problems and still no cravings. This coming from a 240 to 320 mg/ day oxy snorting use. What the F, go figure. The best, Wil

Edit to Dennis, Dennis, best to you and sorry about the post to Jaden, I really didn't notice the thread his recent post was on. My bad, but I do wish you well, Wil
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Unread 12-19-2007, 06:27 PM   #2
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Add me to the list. I was on here Back in Jan/Feb with my ex. I am still sober. I love my life, i am so much more produtive, i am going back to college for my MBA, I got a new car, I am in good terms with my family. Life is awesome.
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Unread 12-19-2007, 06:27 PM   #3
NancyB
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This is a good thread too. Thanks Mary!
Nancy

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16077
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Unread 12-19-2007, 06:46 PM   #4
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Hi Nancy

I really like this idea, I'm sorry I missed the conversation that lead to this but it is a fantastic idea. I have some other suggestions, that probably were all ready made, but in case not. I think it would be really cool to make this into a section of the web site, like the other stories. When I first started investigating suboxone, I was really worried that if I went on it I would never be able to get off again, and that I would also have a hard time tapering down.I have a feeling others feel this way also. I can personally say tapering down can be done quite easy, if you pay attention to your body and go at a rate that is slow enough for you. I've done fast tapers and slow ones the only difference is how much discomfort you are willing to go through. I prefer no discomfort so I taper very slowly now. At the very least I think we should make it a sticky thread.

I would also like to thank you and the rest of the community of NAABT for all the help you have given me.

Thank you
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Unread 12-19-2007, 09:31 PM   #5
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Hey, very cool thread, very cool indeed. Wow, didn't realize there were so many of us. Just goes to show. Embrace the taper. Be the taper. Don't overthink the taper. Beams! -Mary
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Unread 12-19-2007, 10:09 PM   #6
NancyB
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Hi Dr.Smith,
wil posted here yesterday,
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16382
which sparked this thread of tapers here.

I think I'll make this a sticky now. That's a great idea about it being a section of site too!

Nancy
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Unread 12-20-2007, 08:22 AM   #7
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I did a two week Suboxone taper.8,8,6,6,4,4,4,2,2,2,1,1,.2,.2....0
I felt under the weather about 2 days.I had some major sneezing,depression,lethargy & insomnia.It was nothing like going cold turkey.After about the 4th day I started back to the gym and running again.I wasn't 100% but I still went every day.Each day got better and better.I go to NA meetings at night and therapy once a week.
I would say in two weeks I was back about 80% and felt great.
I now have almost 2 years sober and clean.
I'm so grateful I didn't buy into the doctors recommendation that I stay on Sub for a year.
Thanks
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Unread 12-20-2007, 04:21 PM   #8
OhioMike
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"I'm so grateful I didn't buy into the doctors recommendation that I stay on Sub for a year."

WHY?
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:58 PM   #9
Dennis
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Hello to everyone. Been addiction free for almost a year. So much out there to do and I'm enjoying it. Wishing everyone the best in fighting the fight. You deserve your freedom, so take it. Dennis
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Unread 12-21-2007, 09:46 AM   #10
365Tao
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Why? Why Not?[8D]
Being dependent on another opiate wasn't my ideal of freedom.Giving my power and money to a doctor isn't my ideal of freedom.Suboxone treatment is new in the U.S.They don't really know what long term effects are going to be.IMO,all this rhetoric about it healing your brain etc, is theoretical.It's not based on any science.Anyway,everyone has to come to their own truth.What worked for me might not work for you.
It definitely made my withdrawls easier but I still had withdrawls.
I remember in the early 70's that Quaalude was touted as a safe,non-addicting sleeping pill.That was a major cluster f*ck.
When Valium first came out it was supposed to be perfectly safe.Every housewife in the U.S.was popping pills."Mothers Little Helper"

The goal is to get clean.Whatever path you choose to do that is the right one.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 01:04 PM   #11
Brett
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I am still on sub and have no plans to come off, However I wanted to update everyone about Hunter, he is doing great and has been off all opiates a few months now. He works for me so i see him most days and he is doing great. he was on sub almost 2 years, got serious and tapered off. The first 3 weeks were tough for him but he is nearly 100% now.

merry Christmas to all

Brett
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Unread 12-25-2007, 03:06 AM   #12
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My Sub Dr. Rx's me 32/mg a day and that wasn't working too well as I always felt I needed more. Sometimes I even took 40/mg per day still not good enough. On my own I tapered from that high daily dose down to 16mg/day for 1 week, and now I'm at 12 mg/per day and I feel SO MUCH BETTER! Thanks to everyones advice about SUB being more effective at lower doses now I build up a few months supply, JUST IN CASE. I'm sure most of you have read the stories of their Dr's dropping them and I like to have a cushion just in case. BTW I wouldn't reccomend this HUGE drop in dose to anyone else, but it has been great for me. Enough rambling out of me, I hope everyone here has a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

SEAN
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Unread 03-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #13
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hey everybody...im new to this community.
this is the first time i have ever done anything like this....so i hope im doing it the right way....if not please let me know...
i have just been reading some posts about those of you who have tapered off of suboxone. i am wanting to do this...i have been taking suboxone for four (4) years now. i am down to just 1/2 of a two mg. tablet. but because i have taken that little half for so long now, i feel worried about what will happen to me when i just abruptly stop. how do i taper from such a tiny amount...should i start taking it every other day...(for how long?) and then maybe every three days...and so on ????
what will i feel? im scared to feel any pain ofany kind...im scared of insomnia....any encouragement and support is welcome. and much love to everbody out there aspiring toward clean and healthy lives...
xo
splinter
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Unread 03-09-2008, 05:03 PM   #14
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Hi, Welcome to the board! If you go nice and slow you will be fine. When I was stable at 0.5mgs I started taking it every other day, then every 3 days, and would start to forget to take it at all.

Before tapering off make sure you’ve reduced stress in your life as best as possible, and have eliminated any triggers or people who would place you at risk for relapse. I found keeping busy and going to work everyday helped me. Sitting at home looking at the medicine cabinet waiting for withdrawal symptoms to come is the worse thing anyone could do, so occupy yourself with things you like to do or anything to keep you busy. I had some insomnia for about a week, and was a little lazy for about 2 weeks then it was all ok. I was on for 3 years.
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Unread 03-10-2008, 06:39 AM   #15
OhioMike
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365Tao wrote:
"IMO,all this rhetoric about it healing your brain etc, is theoretical"


Well I agree. In fact, it's not even "theoretical" as "it" does not heal your brain. Nothing heals your brain except time and nature. If healing is possible for the individual and to what degree. Sadly this is the misconception, that there is some kind of claim that Bupe heals the brain. More twisted words, as the truth got repeated. That claim has never been officially made.

OMike
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Unread 04-28-2008, 12:58 AM   #16
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From go75:

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by go75

Figure I'd post the end of the story for me, at least as far as sub is concerned. Got on sub in early December, bounced around on doses between 6mg-8mg in December, then was on 12mg through all of January, and made the decision in my life to get totally drug-free as quickly as possible at end of January. I was shocked by this, as I had figured I was due for a long stay, at least a year if not years, on sub. Dropped immediately to 8mg, stayed there a week, dropped to 4mg, stayed there a week, spent 4 days on 3mg, 4 or so days on 2mg, 1 day on 1mg, and stopped. At every point in time my dr told me to taper slower but supported me if that's what I wanted to do, and I just wanted to get off.

First 2 days after I quit were fine, then I spent about 5 days suffering from what would be considered pretty moderately bad opiate withdrawals, and then suffering from complete insomnia and restless legs I got legitimately sick and spent week 2 in general misery as well. Two full weeks after quitting sub, I felt good again physically, and other than some lingering trouble sleeping which I take melatonin to help, that is the end of using drugs of any kind.

The sequence of events that me getting on sub started resulted in a really positive outcome for me as of this moment, so from that perspective I am really happy with the whole process. I didn't really get any positive benefit from sub in terms of minimizing withdrawal, I went through withdrawal that I am sure was every bit as bad or worse as it would have been had I quit my hydro habit in a similar way, and if I had done a long slow taper I probably could have minimized some of that acute pain, but then today I would still be on sub and mentally I feel really good that I am not.

Sub was neither a miracle cure or a horrible drug - it is a different drug that has its own effects which like everything else can be positive or negative. If someone could have shook me hard 3 months ago and told me I could have freedom from active addiction and never had to use drugs again, told me to go to NA and get in recovery, and gotten me to listen, I could have gotten to the same place today without a brief interlude on sub, but until I was ON sub, I wasn't ready to hear that message, and that's what it gave me.

Thanks everyone for the help along the way.
From:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16539
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Unread 05-05-2008, 02:14 PM   #17
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I am a 51 y o man who has been opioid free for the last 5 years due to the success of my suboxone maintaince therepy.

After reading a few comments on your site I'm surprised that folks are still determined to get off suboxone as quick as possible. If a doctor told you you had high blood pressure and had to take a pill, would you ask for how long? Same goes for diabetes and any other health condition.

Do not think that you can't relapse. Relapse is a defining measure of opioid addiction. I feel so bad for all the people who have sucssfully tapered and WILL someday relapse. It is bound to happen in some of the population. That much is a given. Wouldn't it be better to just stay on Sub? Even a very low dose.
Why is everyone in such a hurry to get off Suboxone? Haven't you read the liturature? Do you really think you are OK?

This is a lifelong diasese and it's not going away regardless of how you feel.

A big thank you to the doctor who recommended a years therepy at a minimum. That really is a minimum.
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Unread 05-10-2008, 12:12 PM   #18
NancyB
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From stillhopeful:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=17886

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by stillhopeful

I just want to thank everyone on here, Nancy for referring me to Senior member's post's on medicine's to help with withdrawl, and to other members who responded to my S.O.S. as I was ready to take the plunge off of Subutex. The medicine's worked like a charm to counteract withdrdawl. I also want to thank my Sub doctor for giving them to me and for her support.

In a nutshell, I was taking benzo's and narco's before getting on Subuxone. I then had to get off of Suboxone because of chronic migraines and switched to Subutex. Due to so much missed time from work and since I had to come clean with my employer about my addiction leading to rehab., I had to get off of Sub per the advice of my medical doctor's as they felt this was causing my migraines.

I had been on Sub for about 6 months and was terrified that my brain was not ready. I had a bad episode of withdrawl in February trying to wean off of Sub after being on it for 3 months..I was apparently not ready. So, this time, I went in with "guns loaded" and made sure my medication arsenol was well stocked. On day 6 of detox, I am proud to say, it has been bearable. Note: I was taking 2 mg of Subutex before going off.

I write this post so that if I can be of ANY help to ANYONE who is considering going off, in order to help minimize your symptoms, I will feel as though I have done the greatest favor that those did for me. With medicine, prayer, and the love of my husband by my side, it has been a relatively painless 6 days with symptoms that were tolerable.

My symptoms were body being very cold, a bit of diarrhea, sleeping quite a bit, sweating and that's about it!

The medicine's I took..again thanks to senior member's advice on here:
Clonodine - for skin crawling, agitation...this is a BP medication that is Rx only
Compazine - for nausea, it's also an anti-psychotic that helps with skin crawling...Rx only
Seroquel - for sleep..though I didn't need this, slept fine without it...Rx only
Japanese foot patches - Sold at Basset's...it detoxes you while you sleep by drawing toxins out of your body

A side note...I had pneumonia and broken ribs going into this. So, my doc had me on a muscle relaxor for the ribs which I was also taking, but nothing for pain besides Tylenol as I am allergic to aspirin and Ibuprofin which is how I got in the narco mess in the first place.

So, my sincere thanks to everyone for your support. I will continue to post here in an effort to help others, but am confident my journey is uphill from here...and my life is beginning drug free with a whole new perspective. God bless.

Tammy
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Unread 05-26-2008, 01:57 AM   #19
365Tao
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My only problem with this site is how long people encourage others to stay on Sub.I found Ohio Mike's approach a bit fundamentalistic and defensive if considering doing a shorter detox? Maybe that's just my take.
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Unread 05-26-2008, 06:40 AM   #20
TIM
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365Tao,
People are encouraged to stay on the medication ONLY as long as it is needed and effective at keeping the addiction in remission. Nobody is advocating staying on this or any medication one minute longer. Since the evidence shows higher survival rates for longer treatments, it can be dangerous to encourage short detoxes for people with longterm addictions.

see: Why are short-term treatments less effective for opioid addiction?
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14118

Tim
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Unread 05-26-2008, 08:07 AM   #21
365Tao
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I am sure your Dr. Seems like a great/supportive/understanding person. But if they tell you that the wds from sub are going to be mild, or tell you to stay on it as long as you like, then they are misinformed. Sub wds are rarely mild and due to the extremely long life, they will last for a very long time. Most of the literature and research done on sub seem to promote this miracle pill mentality. Buprenorphine is just another opioid, and no matter what excuses you can come up with or rationalizations, this is still drug replacement therapy just like methadone. Sub has been nicknamed methadone-lite or the lesser of two evils. It is addictive and a real bitch to get off, just be aware of these factors when making a decision.
...but I'm not being paid to advocate anything
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Unread 05-26-2008, 12:15 PM   #22
TIM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by 365Tao

I am sure your Dr. Seems like a great/supportive/understanding person. But if they tell you that the wds from sub are going to be mild, or tell you to stay on it as long as you like, then they are misinformed. Sub wds are rarely mild and due to the extremely long life, they will last for a very long time. Most of the literature and research done on sub seem to promote this miracle pill mentality. Buprenorphine is just another opioid, and no matter what excuses you can come up with or rationalizations, this is still drug replacement therapy just like methadone. Sub has been nicknamed methadone-lite or the lesser of two evils. It is addictive and a real bitch to get off, just be aware of these factors when making a decision.
...but I'm not being paid to advocate anything
365Tao,
You are very misinformed. First, I think you’ve misread the literature because it doesn’t say bupe withdrawal is mild it says the withdrawal profile is milder than full agonist opioids in controlled studies. Misinterpreting that to mean it will be mild for you will no doubt bring disappointment, especially coupled with your other misunderstandings of the treatment.

Withdrawal is caused by alterations to the brain, not the bupe. These alterations already existed before even starting bupe. In other words the potential for withdrawal already existed and is not caused by the treatment medication. (no more than insulin causes diabetes, even though symptoms return when treatment is stopped)Bupe suppresses those symptoms allowing you to do the work to change your brain back. If you don’t make those changes you haven’t alerted your potential for withdrawal. If you stop suppressing these symptoms with bupe before their cause has healed, symptoms will undoubtedly return and at first glance bupe could easily be mistaken for the cause.

How comfortable yours or anyone’s taper will be depends on whether they have paced their taper with their brains ability to heal and did the necessary things to facilitate that healing. We’ve had many people, on this site, complete comfortable tapers, some from very severe longterm addictions.

People rarely get addicted to bupe and it is very different than any full agonist. If you don’t understand the treatment there is no way you will develop realistic expectations. Here are some educational pieces to read. (You’ll need to understand the difference between physical dependence and addiction)

difference between physical dependence and addiction
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15332

The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence:
http://archives.drugabuse.gov/PDF/Pe...s-Neurobio.pdf

"The Science of Addiction"
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NIDA_..._addiction.pdf

TIP 40
http://www.naabt.org/links/TIP_40_PDF.pdf

Without understanding addiction and this treatment you will not be able to use it effectively. Please educate yourself about it. Education is always worth the effort especially when dealing with a life-threatening disease like addiction.
Tim
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Unread 05-29-2008, 02:57 PM   #23
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wantlifeback:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=17973

Douglas:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=18624
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Unread 07-11-2008, 02:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
quote:People rarely get addicted to bupe
What a bunch of crap.[8D]
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Unread 07-11-2008, 02:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by 365Tao

Quote:
quote:People rarely get addicted to bupe
What a bunch of crap.[8D]
Hi 365Tao, Maybe this will help you to better understand the differences between addiction and physical dependence. [8D]

http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#1

Hope it helps.
Nancy
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Unread 07-11-2008, 06:18 PM   #26
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Semantics.
The facts.....It's an opiate 30x stromger than morphine.Any opiate taken for a period of time will result in physical dependence.

I go to several recovery BB's and people go through a protracted w/d's and PAWS coming off this s**t more than they ever did on their DOC.

Experience is the truth.Talking down to me and throwing a bunch of scientific jargon in order to promote your agenda doesn't change the facts.
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Unread 07-11-2008, 06:33 PM   #27
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365Tao, You missed the point. Addiction is behavior. Uncontrollable, compulsive behavior despite negative consequences.

Physical dependence is the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms upon sudden cessation of a medication. There is physical dependence associated with buprenorphine, any full agonist, benzos, some anti-depressants. It means that those medications must be tapered off.

The majority of people in buprenorphine treatment are not engaging in the compulsive, life threatening, damaging behaviors that are the hallmarks of addiction. They are being treated for a medical condition with a medication. And, yes, there is physical dependence with buprenorphine.

Nancy
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Unread 07-11-2008, 06:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by 365Tao

Semantics.
The facts.....It's an opiate 30x stromger than morphine.Any opiate taken for a period of time will result in physical dependence.

I go to several recovery BB's and people go through a protracted w/d's and PAWS coming off this s**t more than they ever did on their DOC.

Experience is the truth.Talking down to me and throwing a bunch of scientific jargon in order to promote your agenda doesn't change the facts.

The experiences AGREE with the scientific facts, they are not at odds. I apologize if you took my post as talking down to you that was not my intent.

It is incorrect to make a blanket statement that bupe is 30x stronger than morphine for reasons well explained here:
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by staticx79

When people say things like " sub is 50 X stronger than morphine" they are sorta incorrect. I posted this awhile back, but I dont think anyone responded. At doses of 0.2 and 0.4mg sub is 20-50 X (i forget the exact number) more potent as an ANALGESIC than morphine. This means that you would take the dose of sub (0.4mg for instance) and multiply that by 20 or 50, which is 8 or 20. That means that, for pain killing ability, 0.4mg of buprenorphine is equivalent to 8-20mg morphine.

Now, sub is a partial agonist, therefore it has less intrinsic activity at the receptors. This means it DOES NOT have linear kinetics. By that I mean, IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT to state that at the doses WE are taking, it is 20-50 X more potent than morphine. At smaller doses (like 0.2-0.8), yes, it may be. But as you keep adding more and more sub, you get less and less of an ADDED effect.

Therefore, you can say 0.4mg of sub has the same pain killing effect of 8-20mg morphine, BUT 4mg IS NOT equivalent to 80-200mg morphine.

To think of it in common sense terms, I take 8mg twice daily of sub. If I would stop taking it for 2-3 days (so that it wouldn't be able to block the receptors) and then try taking 400mg morphine twice a day (assuming the 50 X stronger-- 8mg X 50 is 400mg), obviously it would get me unbelievably high. And if it truly was equivalent, it wouldn't get me high, it would just get me out of wds.

We’ve posted that physical dependence (PD) results from taking opiods, that’s not in dispute, but your inference that bupe produces or adds to a person’s already existing level of PD is inaccurate. I’ll refer to this section of my above post to explain.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TIM



Withdrawal is caused by alterations to the brain, not the bupe. These alterations already existed before even starting bupe. In other words the potential for withdrawal already existed and is not caused by the treatment medication. (no more than insulin causes diabetes, even though symptoms return when treatment is stopped)Bupe suppresses those symptoms allowing you to do the work to change your brain back. If you don’t make those changes you haven’t alerted your potential for withdrawal. If you stop suppressing these symptoms with bupe before their cause has healed, symptoms will undoubtedly return and at first glance bupe could easily be mistaken for the cause.
Our "agenda" is to educate and offer support to people who use medication as part of their treatment for opioid addiction. What is your agenda?

Tim
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Unread 07-21-2008, 11:16 AM   #29
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Sam Bailey's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=18655

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sam Bailey

Hey Shares,

Sheesh, what an imbecile! Me, I mean. I, like, totally zoned re: your question, Shares. Big apology!

Anyway.

OK. Here's that Reader's Digest (Very) Condensed Version: As I've mentioned several times, I've been battling my dope-demon for 20+ years...and I've detoxed, "recovered" and, eventually, I always, relapsed right back to dope.

Until this 3rd go-round with Sub. This time I spent nearly 3-years on the medication. But this time, I did it correctly.

Like always, I began on 16+mgs of Sub a day...and, as always, easily tapered down to 12, then 8, then 6, then 4, then 2mgs a day. 2 mgs was, for me, an ideal---Maintenance Dose. I was perfectly comfortable, well-balanced and, so far as I, and my family, could tell, I was sharp and very clear-headed.

I was also completely free of my wretched Active Addiction.

Now, I COULD spin a whole OTHER story about how much my life improved (and it did!), physically, mentally and spiritually. But, nope, that's not for this tale.

This is about my taper and jump.

So, after a little more than a year on 2mgs a day, I began a SLOW taper down, cutting, literally, .25mgs off my dose each taper-time. I don't have an exact record of time and dose, etc., but I ended up going down from 2mgs, to 1.5, to 1.25, to 1.0, to .75, to .50...and I stayed with each for a while, especially the .50 mgs. This process took me...about 6 months. Something like that.

Was it always easy, without any queasy, unsettling, w/d-like effects? Nah. Nope. No way. Every time I chipped off a little more Sub, I felt, for a day or so, a little sideways. Physical? Yes, I believe so. Mental? No question about it. But still, NOT bad at all...and very tolerable. Then after 2-3 days, I was full-speed ahead.

In MY opinion, what I did during this entire time that was KEY to everything was (and I write about it often)..."[u]Vigorous Exercise</u>." Nope, not an easy 2 mile jog 3-4 times a week. I'm talking about strenuous(!), hardass workouts! For me, it was running 6-7 miles a day, every day. One rest/easy day every 8-9 days. Sweat like hades! Respiration extreme. Hard, heart-pounding, challenging exercise! Supplemented by (some) upper body muscle work, including lots of sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting going insane, like some, well---drug addict looking for drugs (ha!). But, seriously, I am talking about "[u]Vigorous Exercise</u>."

So...for the past several months, I was dosing on .50/.25 mgs a day, then I began to alternate days...until I was dosing (only) every third day.

Oh yeah---with all that extremely strict dosing (no spiking and NO picking up, ever!), I made certain that I...OK, I'm lying...I did my BEST to eat well and get decent rest.

Then, about a month ago, I jumped. And folks, I'm OK. Better than OK, actually. I suffered no withdrawals...I have no cravings...and, so far, the concept of PAWS is, to me, an absolute myth. Could I (soon?) be surprised with SOME kind of ill effect, since there MIGHT be some Sub still in my system? Yes, that's possible...though I can't imagine there's much, if any!, actually coursing through ol Sam's veins.

And that's it.

For better or worse...and for me? Far better.

Not an especially motivating tale, I know. More a list, I guess. Nonetheless, this regime worked for me...I will not (yet!) claim to be healed. Yet, I know, as much as I can possibly know, I am healing---brain, body, spirit and soul.

Edited to add: I have said this many times. And since I've just summarized my jump off the Sub-Train, I want to be certain this fact is included, again: After nearly 3 years on Sub Maintenance, the medication NEVER stopped working for me...never, not once(!), turned on me...never produced dysphoria, malaise or depression...never produced ANY of those negative effects that some sites/people claim is inevitable. It is not inevitable.

Sure, perhaps that does happen to (some) other people. However, it did NOT happen to me.

Just for the record.


best,

sam b
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Unread 08-04-2008, 12:12 AM   #30
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Lovepat906's son:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=18805

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by lovepat906

On March 31,2008, my son started suboxone. He had spent two years on methadone after a long time addiction to pain pills. He tapered from a high of 95mgs methadone daily down to 10 mgs, went through 3 days of WDs and then started sub. He quickly built up to a high of 16mgs and then began an immediate taper. He tapered slowly down to .25 mgs a day and then began skipping. First every other day and then two, three. four and five skips between doses. Toward the end he did experience some WDs- mostly some sleeplessness and a few days of strong craving. To make a long story short, he is now 129 days off Methadone/ 126 days on Suboxone with 30 of those days skipped AND he is DONE. He hasn't taken anything for the past 13 days and has felt wonderful for the last 5 days- "normal" he says! His plan was to be done by his wedding which will be on 8/8/08. Looks like he's made it. He knows there will be challenges ahead but he is just so happy and thankful to be free and feeling well!
I would like to thank the many contributers here who have provided guidance and inspiration. And I hope this post will provide some reassurance to those who are still struggling - YES YOU CAN!
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Unread 08-06-2008, 02:16 AM   #31
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THANKS NANCY THIS IS A GREAT IDEA!!!!!!!
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Unread 08-10-2008, 10:32 PM   #32
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Sub-Zero's thread:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=18865
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:10 PM   #33
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What does it mean take decreased dose every other day while taking normal dose everyday? isnt that lie spiking, i.e 2mgs everyday then 0.5 some days then again 2mgs, something like that you mean?
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Unread 08-11-2008, 05:41 AM   #34
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Well, if you were taking 2mg every day, it wouldn't be spiking, now would it? Understand? The dose is reduced!
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Unread 08-27-2008, 04:47 AM   #35
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Did that 365tao come here looking for a fight or what? LOL

Anyway, this thread is very helpful and I have taken many people's stories into consideration while I continue my taper, thx all! So far so good!

If 365tao ever reads this....it is possible to get off suboxone quite painlessly, it's a virtue of patience. But then again, I strongly respect your strength of choosing to get off all drugs once and for all. Just keep it that way!
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Unread 09-23-2008, 05:41 AM   #36
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notkernals:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=19783
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Unread 09-24-2008, 03:56 PM   #37
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I will be 8 months drug/alcohol/bupe free the 30th. I tapered off over a 2 week period and havent looked back. I personally have proven there is no long term withdrawls associated with bupe. I believe it to be a symptom that is behavior based. had I not changed my thinking patterns, Id have had the same bleak outlook about not having anything in me to cope and struggled with that reality. I really had to do some hard looking at myself and the reasons for my use and the reasons to want to quit for me. I stopped living in so much fear and decided to actually fight this disease head on and my life today is a huge change in direction from where i was when i first came here. I am in gratitude for all the help I received here. If you fear jumping, take a good look at why that is. It was quite relieving to actually get honest with myself and how this disease manifests its insidious needs thru me. Rationalizing and pats on the back are what it wants, it keeps me sick. For me, I would have behaved in a way that would let me rationalize staying on bupe forever because without "something" in me what was I left with? Myself and my feelings. feelings are not bad today as long as I honor them and check my motives. it all usually ends up pointing somewhere around fear. Today i turn my fear into courage and see the good in all situations, perceived bad or good, there is a lesson to grow from everyday. I am 20 years deep in use and 8 months Truly sober for the first time, I feel great.
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Unread 09-24-2008, 05:19 PM   #38
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Hi thedober! Congratulations on your success!
I'm so happy for you and thanks soooo much for coming back and sharing with us.

Best wishes,
Nancy
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Unread 09-30-2008, 08:41 PM   #39
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I am officially off of sub and still kicking.

I did a rapid 2 week taper from 8mgs and didnt do it very scientifically at all.

I didnt feel anything, I may have sneezed some but nothing noticable. I have been exhausted for months prior to stopping but thats because I honestly havent had very many nights of good sleep at all this year. Babies can do that to you

I was on sub for 2+ yrs highest dose of 16mgs.

I admit I was already tired and feeling down before I even dropped dose, so I figured why not. Sub for me is cost prohibitive. I would much rather spend the money on the baby.
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Unread 09-30-2008, 09:04 PM   #40
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Bmaur

Congratulations on getting off Sub, you should be so proud of yourself, I hope you are enjoying your little one and enjoying life.

Helen



Dober

Congratulations to you also you and Bmaur gives all of us BIG hope down the line as we taper.
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Unread 10-01-2008, 05:48 PM   #41
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Hey thedober and bmaru, welcome to the no-sub zone. Very cool to see you guys doing good.

Beams! -Mary
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:49 AM   #42
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Warrior_Ali's thread:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=19859
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Unread 10-03-2008, 07:04 PM   #43
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Default I'm Back!

Hi Nancy! Great topic! I just wanted to give everyone an update. I have been off Suboxone for a little over a year now. Life is GREAT! It is so busy and hectic, but I thank God I am living each day clean and sober! I am not just clean, I am in recovery. I have come to find out there is a huge difference. I am in school full time, working part time at a drug rehab ( love it! ) and interning at the same rehab as well. I just started working the 12 steps, which I had never really gotten into until now. I am at peace with myself, I love working with people who have addictions, and I couldn't really ask for much more. Don't get me wrong, I struggle financially, and have bad days, and will probably never completley stop thinking about life using drugs, but I am in recovery, I am happy, and I have come to terms with my disease. I just want to give everyone out there hope and let them know where there is a will there is a way! I did it, and so can EVERYONE else! Peace to all, God bless!
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Unread 10-05-2008, 08:57 AM   #44
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Hi Emma! Thanks for stopping by and letting us know how you're doing.

You have such a full plate! I'm really happy that you're doing well and are enjoying life.

Keep in touch when you can.


Nancy
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Unread 10-21-2008, 11:35 PM   #45
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365tao, Have ever come off of subutex. Have you experienced the paws youself.
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Unread 10-22-2008, 10:28 AM   #46
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Speakin of crutches,,it doesnt matter to me if in fact that is in fact what it is for me. I look at it like there is something wrong with me and if a crutch helps me hobble through life, then so be it! Its better than no hobble at all.
I go back to using then it would probably be a wheelchair!,,I prefer to hobble,,plus i can use the crutch to hit the ol lady with if she gets lippy!!
Tattoo Tommy
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Unread 10-23-2008, 12:00 PM   #47
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Default Wow...thanks Thedober...

I really appreciate what you posted below. Primarily about asking oneself "why" if scared to taper/come off the Sub. I've been pressured into coming off of Sub. by both my boyfriend and my Sponsor (AA), but have not really tried too hard because I don't feel ready. Of course, like you said, my disease also rationalizes my use of Bupe. But my therapist concurs that I need to wait a little while longer. Anyhow, just wanted to let you know I appreciate what you said. It's encouraging for those of us who do eventually want to come off.

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Unread 10-26-2008, 10:57 AM   #48
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Well,,you have to do what sbest for you,,its good to have support(boyfriend and sponsor),but even when they have best intentions they arent always right,
When i here the word sponsor i remember a time when my wifes sponsor talked her right into prison!,,I had found my wife od'd one too many times and made an appointment with my wife,her sponsor,and parole officer. I wanted to tell the parole officer all i knew about sub and get her to agree to let my wife take sub.
Then the bitch,,sponsor started her BS saying sub is nothing more than another methadone and so on. But the P.O.did ok it, but my wife refused and ended up goin back to prison for a 60day drug program. I dont know if my wife has ever fully forgiven me for that,but i dont care,,something had to be done and i wasnt gonna do nothing and watch her die wich she surely would have if she continued using.
She ended up on sub anyway,,just took the long way there, Just want to point out i did not push the idea of sub onto my wife until it seemed there was no other option.
WE went to meetings but that was where i found out she was scoring all her drugs! The last time she bought 300 methadone and damn near died!
She is on sub and has been for a few years but she still has some cravings. We were just talking about that yesterday. Right now there is some hesitation about upping her dose cause we may be losing our doctor so we may have to start to taper. Ive already started. I hope things work out cause my wife cannot physically handle using again.
Tattoo Tommy
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Unread 11-11-2008, 08:50 PM   #49
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My daughter was addicted to heroin and started the seboxone program in December 2008. I'm happy to say that she's heroin-free and tapered off the seboxone October through September 2009. She went from 8mg, 4mg, 2mg, 1mg, .5mg, to tiny pieces...then she finally just stopped...She had a some minor leg cramps and a runny nose for a couple of days...That's it...Seboxone really is a miracle drug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deha267 View Post
My daughter was addicted to heroin and started the seboxone program in December 2008. I'm happy to say that she's heroin-free and tapered off the seboxone October through September 2009. She went from 8mg, 4mg, 2mg, 1mg, .5mg, to tiny pieces...then she finally just stopped...She had a some minor leg cramps and a runny nose for a couple of days...That's it...Seboxone really is a miracle drug.
I didn't mean for my post to sound like it was easy as pie...it was actually a very rough ride...She actually relapsed 2 times back to heroin...quickly started back on the seboxone and then started using other drugs, like mushrooms, zanax, aderal, marijuana, etc.

Monthly visits to a psychiatrist and twice a month visits to an addiction counselor...Tons of money later....she's off the heroin, off the seboxone, and off all the other drugs too...well except I think she still smokes weed....She's going to start college next year and wants to study psychology because she wants to be an addiction counselor...whew!
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Unread 12-15-2008, 12:53 PM   #50
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JuniorNA's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=19662


Bob B's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...d.php?p=321612

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20424
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