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Unread 09-27-2007, 05:01 PM   #1
roberta
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Default subutex abuse

hi, after 4 months of having trouble on the suboxone and my liver enzymes steadily increasing my doc switced me to the subutex. i am very grateful,my rash went away, i am feeling 100 % better etc.








the problem is I looked up the subutex on the net and ran across someone inhaling it. I must admit my addictive self came LURKING around and now i cant get it out of my mind. how do i ?I feel like an unhelpable addict/any advice?roberta



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Unread 09-27-2007, 05:09 PM   #2
mybestlife
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DO NOT put BUP up your nose in your ears up your butt!!! It is meant to be "melted" and you are wasting your time doing it any other way.

There is no way to get high on sub. It would be great if it worked but it doesn't.

I have learned the hard way that if it is chemical and it makes you fell "too good" it is wrong and dangerous.

Sarah
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Unread 09-27-2007, 05:34 PM   #3
mikells43
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yea do not snort it, i mean u can if u want. it all works the same way no matter what method u use to put it in ur body. the under the tonge way is the most efficent and best way. dont u think they would have made a snort version of nitro-glicerion for ur heart if it was faster and got to ur mellon better, or an in the butt version NO cause the tounge and oral muci are the fastest transport TO UR MELLON.
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Unread 09-27-2007, 06:00 PM   #4
roberta
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thanx sharah and mike I needed to hear that
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Unread 09-27-2007, 06:25 PM   #5
jasel
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Subutex is a widely abused drug in some countries. One of the reasons it's only administered in controlled settings in the US. Some use it when they can't find their DOC. Others have that metal addiction, and just want something they can stick in their arm. But the effects will really be no better than what Suboxone does without the naloxone side effects (which for most are none).

You've been given one of the few gifts that are helpful for opiate addiction. Why mess with that?

I read that if you swallow Sub as opposed to taking it sub lingually, it is only 20% as effective.

Keep it under your tongue...
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Unread 09-27-2007, 08:03 PM   #6
SpAcEdGeD
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Snorting it is stupid If the pill is a 8mg Subtex pill when you put the pill on a scale and weigh it, it will weigh more than 8mg. What will end up happening if you snort you will end up snorting more fillers and binders that holds the pill together than you will snort Subtex.
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Unread 09-27-2007, 08:10 PM   #7
Mike
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the corn starch fillers within the pill can get lodged in your nasal cavities and be a food source for fungus. Definitely not something you want to do. If you really want to get high by snorting something heroin would be your best choice, but if you had enough of addiction, then taking your sub as directed is best.
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Unread 09-27-2007, 11:19 PM   #8
SpAcEdGeD
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mike

the corn starch fillers within the pill can get lodged in your nasal cavities and be a food source for fungus. Definitely not something you want to do. If you really want to get high by snorting something heroin would be your best choice, but if you had enough of addiction, then taking your sub as directed is best.
!!!!
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Unread 09-28-2007, 12:44 AM   #9
Taylor36
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mike

the corn starch fillers within the pill can get lodged in your nasal cavities and be a food source for fungus. Definitely not something you want to do. If you really want to get high by snorting something heroin would be your best choice, but if you had enough of addiction, then taking your sub as directed is best.
!!!!!!! I agree Mike and SpaceAged
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Unread 09-28-2007, 12:45 AM   #10
OhioMike
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Boy I'm gald I don't party any longer, you guys would have just screwed a good high for me!
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Unread 09-28-2007, 03:52 AM   #11
mikells43
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yea there are no effects from the naloxone from suboxone. if someone has been on suboxone for a day and tries to shoot it , that little 2mg isn't gonna take the bupe off of the recceptor sites, its just not enough. mabey if they never shot suboxone or took it ever or for at least a week and then shot it they would get sick but if they were induced they arn't gonnna get sick unless they have a ton of naloxone, thats something the people at suboxone did not think about , the binding affinity of bupe, and that small of a dose of naloxone just wolnt touch it.
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Unread 09-28-2007, 08:25 AM   #12
cscally
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I'm with you OhioMike!!
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Unread 10-06-2010, 06:02 PM   #13
laudium
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Lightbulb Here's for information for anyone who is interested....

mike is 100% correct.

You can tell and verify this by reading the monograph. It says something like even high doses of naloxone will not be enough to reverse the effects of buprenorphine. When they take about suboxone causing WDs, re-read the sentence closely. It states roughly, that it will cause WDs only in people who are dependent on full opioid agonist. It says nothing about people who A) have no tolerance and B) people who already induced. As mike said earlier.

People that were opioid experienced, none dependent, when injected with 2mg of buprenorphine IV, they all thought the drug was heroin. I can verify this experience myself. I tried it after 25 days of no opioids and used 1mg or less and even felt a rush from it. It lasted almost 24 hours, [NOT the rush you druggies ]

Its actually scary thought too. If a non-dependent opioid naive person were to inject 1 or 2 mg it could possibly kill them and be very hard for paramedics to use any antidotes. They would have to know that the individual used buprenorphine parenterally to save their life, possibly.

I have to use the tablets IV, because I can't afford it. I take 2mg a day. Very little people need more than that dosage. People that take 24 or 32mg are wasting money and medication. But hell whatever...[Remember that 2mg IV is roughly equivalent to 4-6mg sublingually] Not many people need more than 12mg.

It is a great drug! The best anti-depressant chemical on the planet! I continue to take it for that reason. Plus people develop little or no tolerance to buprenorphine. It is just the BEST opioid maintenance drug out there so far.

Anyways, I shouldn't be posting information like this on this forum. I don't want to give anyone ideas or make people think that abusing suboxone is a good thing.

Last edited by laudium; 10-06-2010 at 06:10 PM.. Reason: some typos and clarification
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Unread 10-06-2010, 08:15 PM   #14
gotoffmdone
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I really wish I could relate to anyone that has taken Sub and got a rush or buzz or high. That has never been my experience. It could very well have to do with my induction and my use of methadone. My first few mgs of Sub threw me into the worst wds, I hope, of my life. When taking a drug that stops wds, feeling normal can seem like a high. I felt normal and that is the last thing you need to feel when inducting with Sub.

I wonder if there are any stats on the percent of people abusing Subutex. My Dr said they are told that there is a 4-5 times the chance of Subutex abuse over Suboxone. That makes little sense to me given the fact they are comparing an abusable drug to a non abusable one. I think Drs are way more concerned about the diversion potential rather than the abuse potential. Either way it is hard to find a Dr willing to write Subutex. Around here they all have a blanket policy against it rather than doing things on a case by case basis.

wayne

Last edited by gotoffmdone; 10-06-2010 at 08:24 PM..
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Unread 10-09-2010, 10:39 AM   #15
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Wayne,

When I first induced from methadone, I did get a kinda dizzy buzz, and I got it for the first coupla days. Since then, I just feel "normal."

I used to think tex was not abusable, but I really started to think about it and I think the only safety factor built into the drug is the ceiling affect, which I think is only really relevant to someone who has been using it regularly. So tex, I believe is definitely abusable by weekend warriors and the like.

I think that an opiate-naiive person slamming 32mg of tex could easily OD as well. This is one of the reasons I am glad to see RB's push to the film form of Suboxone. I can only imagine the physical damage someone would sustain trying to shoot the film.

I've seen stats on Subutex abuse in other countries where its use is more prevalent. Google Subutex images and you should see some PowerPoints or PDF's on it.

Regards,

-Packrat
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Unread 10-11-2010, 08:30 AM   #16
MaJaBe
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I agree, snorting sub is not a good idea. The whole point, IMO, is to stop addictive behaviours, which, for me, was putting shit up my nose.
I don't enjoy the "melting" process, but maybe that's a good thing. It just makes me want to get off the medication as quickly as I can without putting myself at risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laudium View Post

People that take 24 or 32mg are wasting money and medication. But hell whatever...[Remember that 2mg IV is roughly equivalent to 4-6mg sublingually] Not many people need more than 12mg.
I get a little annoyed when people come on here and say that anything over a certain amount is wasting medication. Some people need 32mgs to start, everyone is different. Yes, I am aware of the ceiling effect of Sub, but again, that amount is different for everyone, because our body chemistry's are all different. So for someone to make one of those "One dose fits all" statements is a little ridiculous, to me. Whatever takes away the cravings and WD's is the right amount, not some predetermined number created by someone else.

Anyway, I hope everyone has a great day, Happy Columbus Day! Hopefully you guys got the day off of work. (I didn't )

Best,
J
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Unread 08-08-2011, 08:57 AM   #17
ladyblueii
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I am with you on that 'ALL' people are "NOT" the same. I am worried about myself for I am taking an 8mg first thing in the morning, and then 1/2 around 2-3pm, and then by 7pm I take another 1/2, and I am fine. I have stuck on that and tried to go down to the 1/2 x3 a day. Now I am afraid I am abusing my medication by taking what "I FEEL" helps me and not what the doctor said to do. Then again, he asked me to call & leave a messg, and he WOULD call me back. Well that is not what happened. I have called 4 days last week, and have YET to get a call back. I was put on hold and then a receptionist got back on and said "nurse so n so just said NOT to adjust your medication yourself". Well, my doc told me that however, when I did call before adjusting and called and calledj. When time passed and my w/d symtoms came on, that is when on day 2 of calling I adjusted my dose myself. Now I go back in a few weks and I am going to talk to him about the side effects as well. While I was in his office he asked me several times, "do you have problems sleeping?" I told him some, however I have Ambiem for that. Now keep in mind, Aug. 1st was my first appnt. with this dr to start on Subutex. Well for the Suboxone treatment, however, he placed me on Subutex and told me he was going to treat me as a pain management case, and not take me off but keep me on it for my pain issues I deal with on a daily basis, for he felt I would certainly go back to using the Norco's & Lortabs eventually anyhow due to me living with pain. SO, I keep second guessing myself, or that addiction part of me kicks in and I take what I need to feel best. I dont understand what a "ceiling" is, but I am thinking it is a maximum level. Once you reach it you can go any further no matter how "UP" you try to go, it is a waste of time, therefore taking a chance on serious problems by taking too much. Am I correct? Now I am having a few weird things happening to me for I wake every hr - 2 hrs, and sit up and either eat from fridge, or just sit up & smoke a cigarette while nodding off trying while I am eating or smoking....weird. I am feeling irratable during the days, and feel like I am retaining fluid. Besides eating everything that isn't locked down....is just crazy! So I am calling my dr. back today..& pray I get a response. I am putting off tapering down to 1/2 pill 3x a day....I am where I am and don't want to suffer any detox symptoms for everyone says they are 10x worse than the hydrocodone. So I am staying on 1 8mg in the am, then 1/2 2x a day after that. Mind you I get up at 5am also. The days are long and rough for I am not sleeping well, and am having sweats in my sleep, and constipated! Any suggestions anyone.....It been "women's laxiatives & fiber based drink incerts like Miralax. All works just has my system all stressed out!
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Unread 08-08-2011, 11:04 AM   #18
deedle
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try and try and try some more to get an earlier appt. I've also gone back and forth between suboxone and subutex ...I have permenant chronic pain. it sound s like your dose is messed up..weird side effects ...something ...I'm not a dr ...thats why I'm saying MAKE yours talk to you or find another doc. I'm sorry for your struggle ...keep me updated.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 01:43 PM   #19
NancyB
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Hi ladyblueii, the sleep problems could be because you're taking the buprenorphine late in the day. There are many people who cannot take it noon or later or they have problems sleeping. Have you also been taking the ambien?

You're correct about the ceiling effect. Once you reach your maximum dose, anything more you take has no more effect - except that it can make people lethargic.

Rule of thumb is the best dose is the lowest one that stops cravings and withdrawals. And it's best to take it once a day to get out of the 'dosing throughout the day' behavior.

Here's a thread with a lot of tips for constipation:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14755

The sweats may dissipate as you stabilize your dose.

I hope this is helpful. Let us know if you get in touch with your doctor and what he says.

Nancy
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Unread 08-08-2011, 02:14 PM   #20
asouth32
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I have trouble sleeping as well, but I figure next month Ill ask good ole doc if she can write me something to help with the sleeping problems. I thought that the Immodium has opium in it as well, not sure I heard that somewhere or read it somewhere when I was out of drugs and was trying to find something to get high on til the dealer got his 'dones in. That was a while back before I started treatment. I dont know what the doc is allowed to write, but Im hoping that she can give me something good for sleeping. Once upon a time, my rheumatologist wrote me elavil for my fibro and my husband had to flush it, because I wasnt making any sense when I talked and I was sleeping WAYYYY too much. I wouldnt go back on that crap if I hadnt slept in a week, I would get some benadryl or tylenol pm first. He said that it was making me say things about eating nachos while driving a yellow bus or something, I was out of my head. I wish that I could still take benzo's with the sub but I know that is a big no-no. I used to take Klonipin and it was prescribed to me but I used to take it for sleeping, that was back when I was having panic attacks and it was given to me for nerves. Are they allowed to write stuff like Soma, because that would help with sleep and some of the aches that I am having as well and its not a pain pill or opiate or benzo....its just a strong muscle relaxer. Ok, well back to Farmville for a few minutes and Ill be back in a few.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 02:45 PM   #21
deedle
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I've slept fairly well since I quit the pills..but I've also been extremely sick
which helps the sleep. I'm no dr but benedryl works well.
also a medicine called keppra (usually used for seizures
and migraines ) works wonderfully for sleep like i said..im no dr but ask yours about it.
definitely gets the job done.good luck.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 05:27 PM   #22
gotoffmdone
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"hi, after 4 months of having trouble on the suboxone and my liver enzymes steadily increasing my doc switced me to the subutex. i am very grateful,my rash went away, i am feeling 100 % better etc."

This is how this post started off and I found it interesting because this past March my PCP did some bloodwork on me. She always sens me the results in the mail and if something is outside the limits she circles it and has me call her.

Well my liver enzymes both AST and ALT were elevated. One was 117 and the other 120. They are suppose to be 40ish. She circles it and as most Drs will do and assume is she circled it and wrote the word alcohol with a question mark.

Well I don't drink and my Dr knows that i beleive alcohol is the first thing that comes to their mind. But I was also under the impression that if alcohol was the problem one of the enzymes would be elevated over the other by about a ratio of 2:1.

I have had maybe a six pack of beer since the 1980's. I do not have hep A,B,C,D,E,F........Z. (Have zero sex partners_been married too long_ and I have never used drugs IV)

When I first got off hydros and percs and onto Methadone my liver enzymes were elevated due to the whopping amount of acetominophen I had been taking. Once on Methadone my enzymes were checked every six months and had returned to normal. They remain that way, I know, until 2007. I lost my insurance so I stopped having lab work on a regular basis. Finally this past March I decided it was time to pay for some labwork.

Well the report I got in the mail a week later showed the increase in my liver enzyme levels. As to why that would be the case, all I can say is that in the ten years I was on Methadone my enzymes retuned to normal and remained that way. Last test in 2007 was normal. This past March I was trying to think of what may have changed. The only thing that changed in all those years of normal enzyme testing was my use of Sub. It started in late 2006.

My PCP Dr asked me if the Sub could be the cause and I thought you're the Dr but then I realized that, although she is a very smart Dr( I have seen her since 1986), she is like most other Drs in that they know little to nothing about Sub and don't care too. So, at my next Sub Dr's appt I took those lab results with me for him to see my enzyme levels and I was told that Sub can, in fact, be the culprit. How would one be sure unles and until they stop taking it.

wayne

Last edited by gotoffmdone; 08-08-2011 at 05:31 PM..
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Unread 08-10-2011, 12:21 PM   #23
PrincessDi
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Asouth32 PLease don't ask a Dr to give you soma....Its a big time narcotic and you will get addicted to it...I know I did big time...My Dr had prescribed Vics and soma and it took me years to get off it....The withdrawals are very harsh... Ask your Dr to give you something else... I know I didn't help much just be careful .... Always ask your DR lots of questions...My Dr put me on roboxin and it worked... But I don't know what meds your on so make sure you ask him..Take care and have a great day...Remember One Day At A Time...Di
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Unread 08-10-2011, 07:44 PM   #24
stp747
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Just a quick correction, Soma is a muscle relaxer, it's not a narcotic. Steve
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