Addiction Survivors

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Unread 06-13-2007, 07:16 PM   #1
Dennis
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Default PAWS !!!!!!!!

Hello, i've been off sub for almost 3 months now after only being on it for 9 weeks for a 5 or 6 yr hydro addiction. My taper and jump went smooth enough. But now my depression is too much to handle. I can't even think straight enough to be at work now and have little energy. I went back to my sub dr. and he put me on paxil for the past month. It seems to be helping but i'm still feeling down and out. I also have sleep problems now that lunesta wont cure. I still have a couple of suboxone pills that i have been very tempted to take just to make me feel happy again. THERE IS NO WAY I'M GOING BACK ON VICODIN.(no cravings except to feel better) I have a dr. appointment tomorrow and i guess i'll see what he says. I have a feeling he doesn't want me back on sub but we'll see.Any suggestions? Should I just ride this storm out or try and go on a small maintenance dose of sub for a little longer. Thanks for any replys. Dennis
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Unread 06-13-2007, 07:23 PM   #2
Jaden
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Dennis,

Just Ride it out! Because if you were to go back on Suboxone the only thing that will do is stop the PAWS for the time being, you will have to go through this again.. So just ride this out! I know excatly how you feel!
It will get better Dennis just hang in there!
Also I would suggest taking a good Multivitamin, make sure your eating healthy and staying hydrated!
Getting excercise will help a ton.

God-Speed
Jaden
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Unread 06-13-2007, 07:51 PM   #3
Suture
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Dennis,
IMO-You should try and ride it out, but have a back up plan because the last thing you want is to relapse.

What you are going through is predicted and normal for your addiction history and limited treatment duration. Your 5 year addiction changed your brain. It takes many months to change back. WhatÃà‚‚Â ’s happened is your brain has basically forgotten how to make itself happy. By not making enough natural opioids, you become depressed, hypersensitive to pain, lethargic and usually canÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’t sleep. The good news is everyday you suffer your brain is changing back. Everyday you donÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’t engage in addictive behavior, your brain heals.

You are past the acute withdrawalÃà ‚‚ÃÂà ‚Â‚ÃƒÂƒÃ‚Â‚ÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â” part from being physically dependent on opioids. That would have passed in the first few weeks. If you go back on bupe you will have to go through the acute withdrawal of the physical dependence again for a couple of weeks or so. So you are better not to go back to bupe, but relapse would be much worse.

If you went back on bupe you would need a very low dose probably 1mg/day. Your brain would still heal as long as you didnÃà‚‚Â ’t engage in addictive behavior or obsessed about it. You would develop a physical dependence to the bupe, but as youÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’ve experienced the first week or so when you stopped, ità‚Âà ƒÂƒÃ‚Â‚ÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â’s not as bad as full agonist withdrawal.

I know I would not be able to ride it out, the depression would eventually get to me and I would need a break from fighting it and would eventually relapse. I know because I have already done that. 9 weeks doesnÃà‚‚à’t allow enough time for the brain to heal. Staying on bupe longer would allow more healing to occur and would make this suffering period shorter. But if you can take it youÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’re better off, you will get through it faster and for less money without the bupe. Best of luck.
S-
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Unread 06-13-2007, 07:55 PM   #4
Hunter
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man if you been off sub for 3 months you would be crazy to go back unless you plan to stay on for life. you made iut this far, keep fightin, i envy you man.

H
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:03 PM   #5
Suture
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Hunter,
The crazy thing would be to return to his DOC not to go back in treatment.
S-
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:11 PM   #6
Jaden
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Suture,
It takes time for the brain to heal after we come off opioids. So IMO if you go back on Sub or your DOC, no matter what your still going to feel like crap when you come off these.
Because the fact of the matter is Sub/Bupe is a very strong opioid.
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:16 PM   #7
Dennis
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Thanks for the encouragement guys. Right now i'm just worrying about how this is effecting my job at work. I was really at the end of my rope and had to take off work and go on paxil(even with the side effects its better than deep depression. The 1 or 2 mg. of sub i was taking gave me energy and no depression. But i think i'll try to ride it out a little longer. Thanks for the support.
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:28 PM   #8
Suture
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Dennis, I know what you mean with the depression. It just keeps eating away at you without letting up. It's hard to describe it to people who don't have it themselves. Hang in there!

Jaden, the withdrawal from the physical dependence to 1mgs of bupe isn't that much and is over in a week or so. The PAWS is from the long-term brain changes caused by years of addiction and that takes many months to heal.

S-
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:35 PM   #9
Hunter
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suture

are you saying its impossible to have brain changes while taking bupe? what if you had a small hydro habit 20mg or less per day then went to 32mg bupe for a year, wouldnt the bupe cause more brain changes? after all it is an opiate. is bupe habit forming? can it be addictive? for me the answer is yes.

H
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:38 PM   #10
Jaden
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Suture-
I am not going to argue with you on this issue, you already know where I stand....Its the Opioid that changes your brain NOT your behaviour.
Now with that being said I dont want to muddy up Dennis's thread....

Dennis hang in there buddy, the depression will lift I promise you!
Keep your mind busy and excersise that helps the healing process a ton get those natural endorphins pumpin again!

Take Care

Jaden
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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:56 PM   #11
Suture
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hunter

suture

are you saying its impossible to have brain changes while taking bupe?
NO, that's not what I'm saying.

Quote:
quote:what if you had a small hydro habit 20mg or less per day then went to 32mg bupe for a year, wouldn't the bupe cause more brain changes?
It could.
Quote:
quote:after all it is an opiate. is bupe habit forming?
it can cause physical dependence and even addiction in some, I wouldn't use the phrase "habit forming", it denies the medical nature of the condition
Quote:
quote:can it be addictive? for me the answer is yes.
Yes it can be addictive. Anything can be addictive and it's the addiction that causes the long-term brain changes not the opioid. The opioid is responsible for the tolerance and physical dependence, these are short term brain changes. So if someone takes bupe appropriately, and doesn't become addicted to it (few do) the longterm brain changes will begin to heal and then the person only needs to deal with the short-term physical dependence of the bupe which has been shown to be less than full agonists.

Problems occur when people don't understand this, take bupe for too short of time have PAWS and blame the bupe. If you are obsessing over your sub as you say and it's all you think about as you mentioned, then you may be addicted to it and if so the addiction is continuing and your brain may not be healing.

S-

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Unread 06-13-2007, 08:57 PM   #12
Suture
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Jaden

Suture-
I am not going to argue with you on this issue, you already know where I stand....Its the Opioid that changes your brain NOT your behaviour.
Now with that being said I dont want to muddy up Dennis's thread....
Jaden, people with addictions to gambling have the same brain changes and have PAWS, how can it be the opioid?
S-
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Unread 06-13-2007, 09:08 PM   #13
Jaden
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I begged a differ with you....Do you have any idea the PAWS that come with taking an opioid???

Apples and Oranges to compare with gambling Addiction.....

Sure if you take gambling away from someone their going to be bummed out, but WAY different then taking an Opioid away from someone and Feelig that deep brutal depression that comes along with it....You dont see a gambling addict that cant get out of bed because he is so damned depressed lack of energy, no motivation and all the other symptoms that come with PAWS, Its brutal....
I wish I was a gambling addict an NOT an Opiate addict....Being an Opiate addict is Brutal!!!!!!

Jaden
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Unread 06-13-2007, 09:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Jaden

Suture,
It takes time for the brain to heal after we come off opioids. So IMO if you go back on Sub or your DOC, no matter what your still going to feel like crap when you come off these.
Because the fact of the matter is Sub/Bupe is a very strong opioid.
Lets see there is a big possibility that if some one went back to their drug of choice (Relapse) the could die. Lets say someone who is a heroin addict relapses and takes the dose they used to take at the height of their addiction. Most likely they would die. If they went back to a low dose of sub I don't think anything negative could come out of it. Jaden I know your a Bupe Nazi but you gotta realize that if you were in the situation to A. relapse or B. go back on a low dose of sub, I hope you would pick B. Otherwise you would probably pick up at the amount of DOC you were using and you wouldn't make it.


This could happen to anyone, you are making a choice live or die. I'd rather live
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Unread 06-13-2007, 10:03 PM   #15
Jaden
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Im NOT advocating for him to go back to his DOC, just stating that taking an Opiate he is still going to face the PROBLEMS coming off the opioid....SOOOOO either he does it now or he does it later?!?!

He stated that he wasnt having cravings, just feeling of low energy and depression.
He has been off Opioids for 3 months already and that is awesome......

Way to Go Dennis keep up the good fight....

P.S Lets Not muddy up Dennis's thread!!!

Jaden
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Unread 06-13-2007, 10:24 PM   #16
NancyB
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Back to Dennis. Please.

Hi Dennis, This is from medline plus about Paxil.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...r/a698032.html

"Paroxetine controls your condition but does not cure it. It may take several weeks or longer before you feel the full benefit of paroxetine."

Maybe think about giving it more time to see if you get an additional benefit, and keep in contact with your doctor, perhaps a dose change might be in order?

Also, the basics, good nutrition, staying hydrated and exercise will definitely help get your endorphins going. You've been without opiates for a very short time compared to the 5 or 6 years you were misusing hydro, just be mindful of that too.

Are you seeing a counselor? That could also be helpful in learning to deal with this opiate-free way of living.
Have you tried benedryl for sleep?

Just thought I'd throw some things out there for thought. Please let me know how you're doing.
Nancy
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Unread 06-13-2007, 11:07 PM   #17
Dennis
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Hello Nancy, I have a healthy respect for opiates now and want nothing to do with them now(unless needed) too much damage done already. Suboxone really helped me like it was suppose to, i just question if i was taken off too soon. I was always on a low dosage. I'm taking 40mg of paxil. Is that a normal dose? It seems to be helping the anxiety, but not the depression yet. I'm going to hang in there. This disease is not going to win.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 12:15 AM   #18
NancyB
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Hi again, I found this on the Paxil website:
http://www.paxilcr.com/treatment_wit...ns.html#Dosage

"The recommended starting dose of Paxil CR for depression is 25 mg/day. Your doctor may make dose increases up to 62.5 mg/day if needed."

You did a fantastic job with your bupe treatment. Are you having cravings now, or only the depression and sleep problems? Hopefully the PAWS will be short-lived and you'll be feeling better soon.

Keep me posted, ok?
Nancy
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Unread 06-14-2007, 01:06 AM   #19
RemissionRocks
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the PAWS is from the hydro from 6 years of abuse, not the suboxone. just wanted to make sure that was clear.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 01:23 AM   #20
Jaden
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Wrong Jfriend-
I know someone that was prescribed Suboxone for Pain and No other Pain meds Prior! And he had PAWS.....Sub is an Opioid.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 01:34 AM   #21
Dennis
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No cravings Nancy, just depression and sleep problems. thanks for the information on paxil.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 11:49 AM   #22
sarah
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Great job Dennis!! I think you are getting good advice here but please be cautious of what Jaden says. He/she is in disagreement with most people here and even when proven wrong refuses to alter his opinion. He has been taught countless time and provided references for reading so he could better understand but he remains unenlightened about what addiction actually is and that make his conclusions faulty. Some believe he is only here to spread misinformation. I don't post much, but this site has always been a great place for information and I don't like to see it soiled with the likes of Jaden.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 04:11 PM   #23
wil
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Jaden

Wrong Jfriend-
I know someone that was prescribed Suboxone for Pain and No other Pain meds Prior! And he had PAWS.....Sub is an Opioid.
Sarah, I donÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’t post that much either but this last post from Jaden compels me. I simply donÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’t believe that it is true. Jaden, I feel strongly that either your friend is lying and jerking you around or you simply made it up. Number 1, I find it hard to believe a doctor in the USA is going to, out of the blue, prescribe SUB off label for pain before other approved pain narcotics. Secondly, if he was opiate naàƒÃ‚à ƒÂƒÃ‚Â‚ÃƒÂ‚Ã‚ÂƒÃƒÂƒÃ‚ÂƒÃƒ ‚ƒÃ‚‚àƒÃ‚ƒÃ‚‚ ¯ve, he would have to have been taking very small amounts, under 1 mg or else be very f ed up. Also, they have been RXing Bupe in Europe and Australia for decades for pain and IàƒÂ‚‚Âà ƒÂ‚’ve heard of no reports of PAWS for the pain amounts used. To the contrary, tapering from the small amounts for pain used outside the US is what I believe all these reported mild WDs is referring to. I also wonder and wish that I had originally been given Sub at low amounts before building opiate tolerance for my pain. Whatever, Jaden knowing someone having PAWs after taking Sub for pain and no opiates prior to the Sub simply doesnÃà‚‚à’t make sense. What does make sense is one to make a knee-jerk, quick, blurted out statement out of frustration, trying to bolster their position, regardless of the truth or validity of the statement. JMO, and Jaden, nothing personal to you , I just donÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’t believe you. I will humbly apologize if wrong. Still best to all, Wil
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Unread 06-14-2007, 07:09 PM   #24
NancyB
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Hi Dennis, that's great that you don't have any cravings. I hope things get better quickly. Give the exercise a try also. Just 20 minutes of walking might make you feel a lot better.
Feel better soon.
Nancy
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Unread 06-14-2007, 07:10 PM   #25
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Dennis,

Im one of those that dont have any plans to come off sub, I was never to good at feeling less then my best so for now anyway, I plan to take sub the rest of my life, quality of life is whats important. I get the best quality from taking sub everyday. You need to do whats best for you, some may find they wont ever be just right after being addicted to opiates, and they may need to take a small amount of opiate for life, if you still feel bad 6 months post sub, why keep suffering when it may never end?
Is taking sub everyday that bad? It doesnt bother me enough to live without it.

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Unread 06-14-2007, 07:17 PM   #26
Jaden
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The Main Point I'm trying to make here is that the opioid changes the brain, not the behaviors....
Ok with that being said, I am NOT knocking Suboxone treatment I truly believe that people need this as a tool in their recovery....

I'm not trying to start problems on this website at all, I really just want to state my Experience that I went through that is all.....
I'm leanring new things everyday and i keep an open mind and read as much as I can to try to get a better grasp on things....


Dennis how are you doing?

Take Care,
Jaden
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Unread 06-14-2007, 07:26 PM   #27
Mike
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Jaden,
Try reading about non-chemical addictions like gambling or food and you'll see that behavior and the brain changes are the same thing. You don't need opioids to become addicted. Plenty of people take opioids and don't become addicted, why? Nobody is saying suboxone shouldn't be used as tool.

It's not your experience that is in dispute just your conclusions.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 07:31 PM   #28
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Hi I just posted this in another topic, it seems appropriate here also (not really Dennis whole thread has gotten off topic).

If this discussion about PAWS and the cause of it is to continue, please keep it out of Dennis's thread. It is off-topic, we're trying to help Dennis out here. Thanks.
_____

Maybe this will help in understanding some of the changes the brain goes through from addiction. The person in this clip is addicted to crack cocaine, which does not produce a physical dependency as opiates do. It shows the changes are there from the addictive behavior.

http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm...segment_3.html

Hope this helps.
Nancy
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Unread 06-14-2007, 08:19 PM   #29
Dennis
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Just got back from my sub dr.(shrink).I ask him about the possibility of going back on a low maintenance dose and his answer was he couldn't legally do it for depression. He did give me some seroquel to help me sleep.We'll see how that works. Does anybody know? He told me to take off work another week and if I dont feel better he was going to treat me as a inpatient for a few days. I sure didn't mean to start an argument. Maybe I should have used a different title for my post.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 08:52 PM   #30
Frozen
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Hi Dennis, I was about to recommend seroquel for your insomnia.
It's my #1 favorite sleep aid. I can practically guarantee you that the seroquel will solve your insomnia issues, as long as your doc is willing to give you enough of it. I need 450-600 mg seroquel to get to sleep every night.

On to the depression...
Here's the key question no one has asked:
Were you depressed before you started your hydro addiction?
Please let me know.

The Paxil isn't working, because it can only help quell depression that stems from a dysregulation of the monaminergic system. Your depression/paws is a dysregulation of the endogenous opioid system.
Therefore, trying to fix your depression with paxil, is like trying to fix a car with a broken transmission... by changing the tires. It's not even supposed to work.

Here are some things that can help with your type of depression: Acupuncture, D-Phenylalanine (DLPA), Capsaicin (tabasco sauce), and the one antidepressant medication that's a quasi-opioid: Effexor.


IF
you don't suffer from EDS (What is EDS? www.ProhibitionKills.com ), I'd expect your paws to be done with, 6-12 months after you got off the sub- but much quicker if you follow my advice and try acupuncture etc.


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Unread 06-14-2007, 09:21 PM   #31
Dennis
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Thanks Frozen, i might have been a little depressed when i started hydros.
Thats really good to hear about seroquel. I needed something. And i will ask my dr about switching to effexor. thanks again, Dennis
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Unread 06-14-2007, 09:29 PM   #32
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dennis

Thanks Frozen, i might have been a little depressed when i started hydros.
Well, in that case you need to figure out whether or not you suffer from EDS! The answer will help determine your best course of action for the long-term.

Do four or more of the following traits apply to you?:

A) Hypersensitivity/sensory defensiveness- This could be hypersensitivity to touch, sound, light, temperature, etc. You're easily made uncomfortable by slight disturbances in your surroundings.
B) Weak immune system- You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition or two. (Amazingly enough, whenever youÃà‚ ƒÂƒÃ‚‚’re on opiates/opioids, your immune system seems to drastically strengthen)
C) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'.
D) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years.
E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- This often comes with a chronic runny nose and possibly other allergies as well.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 11:20 PM   #33
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hey Dennis i just want to say im going through the same crap,its only been 2 months for me off sub so i know how youre feeling.im going to try to ride this out with out any meds, i feel if i take meds im just prolonging these s***ty feelings.it does test my will power everyday though,so good luck and i hope we both get over this hump soon.
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Unread 06-14-2007, 11:51 PM   #34
Dennis
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Hey Ponyboy hang in there. I think i've been off sub for 2 months too. I said almost 3, but i cant seem to think that clearly right now. I going to try and ride it out but I have to have something to help me sleep. good luck to you too.

Frozen, i think i could anser yes to A,C,D,and E
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Unread 06-15-2007, 12:12 AM   #35
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dennis


Frozen, i think i could anser yes to A,C,D,and E
In that case, I suggest you check out my website- www.ProhibitionKills.com .

I bet you've tried all sorts of other drugs, but opioids were the substance to cause an addiction. There's a reason for that- You were probably looking to feel 'normal', not high... am I right?

If you can find a competent acupuncturist, there's a good chance that will help you a great deal. Switching from paxil to effexor is probably also a good idea for you.

If I were in your shoes, there's something else I'd do: Since you're currently off all the opioids, AND it looks like you may have a congenital (permanent) endogenous opioid deficiency, in your shoes I'd definitely want to try LDN. ( What is LDN? http://www.gazorpa.com/interview.html )

For your sake, I do hope you consider my recommendations....
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Unread 06-15-2007, 12:52 PM   #36
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Hey Dennis and ponyboy1, Sorry you're still not feeling that great. It'll get better. Dennis, did you ever try benedryl for sleep? What would the doctor put inpatient for? That seems kind of extreme?

Annnnnyways. Keep exercising, I'm sending healing beams. -Mary
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:20 PM   #37
Dennis
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Thanks for the beams Mary. 50mgs(1 pill) of seroquel knocked me out quick last night. Its suppose to be non addicting so i just hope i dont build up a tolerance to it. He thinks the depression was there before the hydro addiction and said he could treat me more aggressively(for depression) as a inpatient. I will do some exercising today. Dennis
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:23 PM   #38
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Dennis,

Were you a happy person before opiates or a depressed person?

You need to be very careful, relapse is so common when someone stops all addiction tools. Some have remained sober for years only to relapse. If taking 2mg of sub the rest of your life gives you a quality life, then whats wrong with that?

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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:29 PM   #39
Dennis
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Thanks Brett, if i dont get over this depression soon i will find another dr. and go back on a low maintenance dose. 2mg. seemed to keep depression away and gave me energy to last the whole day. Dennis
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:32 PM   #40
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Dennis,
A doctor wrote an article for our newsletter about depression and buprenorphine. You may find it interesting:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/The_B...Depression.pdf
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:32 PM   #41
Brett
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Dennis,

Why find another doctor, all you need to do is tell him you will sonn relapse if he doesnt put you back on sub.

I really wish you would give low dose naltrexone a try, check out my new thread on the subject

Brett
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:39 PM   #42
Dennis
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Brett, where do you get LDN, just ask my dr. for a rx ?
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:49 PM   #43
NancyB
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Hi Dennis, I'm so glad the Seroquel worked for you.

Here's another topic on LDN that might be helpful:

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=889

Let us know how you're doing,
Nancy
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Unread 06-15-2007, 01:59 PM   #44
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Dennis

He thinks the depression was there before the hydro addiction and said he could treat me more aggressively(for depression) as a inpatient.
If your physician fails to understand the difference between monaminergic system dysregulation depression and endogenous opioid system dysregulation depression, you're in for a lot of useless & irrelevant medications (like paxil).

I'm not sure if you're listening to my advice, but I've helped a lot of people deal with EDS- A syndrome your doctor probably doesn't even know exists.
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Unread 06-15-2007, 02:26 PM   #45
Brett
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Dennis,

My sub doctor prescribed LDN for me, there are special pharmacies that will make the 4.5mg dose, If you go to the doctor with some info it will help.

Brett
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Unread 06-15-2007, 02:28 PM   #46
Brett
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Dennis,

check out the link nancie posted, alot of good info in there on the subject, check out all the Links provided there by Frozen and rac12
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Unread 06-15-2007, 02:52 PM   #47
Dennis
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Thanks for the information on LDN guys. I'm calling him now to see if he can prescribe it for me. If not i will have to check around. Dennis
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Unread 06-15-2007, 10:42 PM   #48
bruce genner
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by jfriend33

the PAWS is from the hydro from 6 years of abuse, not the suboxone. just wanted to make sure that was clear.
No, the PAWS is from the suboxone, assuming he took for at least a period of months. This is a fact, not my opinion, it is also common sense as to how drugs work, enter, and leave the brain.
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Unread 06-15-2007, 10:48 PM   #49
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Ryann,

He only took sub for 9 weeks, the PAWS is from the brain changes from years of hydro abuse, 9 weeks on sub and 3 months clean isnt enough time for the brain to return to normal, saying the PAWS is from the suboxone is plain stupid.

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Unread 06-15-2007, 11:39 PM   #50
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Many people experience (well, at least 2 that I know) who were opiate naive and took bupe for a few weeks had some amount of PAWS. I think nine months is sufficient. I also detoxed off sub after taking for 4 weeks, and asked my addictionologist if my PAWS was from my Hydro or the suboxone, and she said it had nothing to do the hydro at that point, that it was the suboxone--and this is someone who firmly believes in, and prescribes suboxone.

Nine weeks is actually a sugnificant enough time to have some amount of PAWS, and it is long enough to be over any PAWS from a short acting DOC. But it is well known that the PAWS for longer term users is definitely from the sub, not the DOC, the only possible exception would be if it was methadone.

This is not Ryannn

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