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Unread 03-02-2007, 06:09 AM   #1
MakHit
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Default Hi gang. I'm new, starting Sub Monday 5th

Hi everyone.

Just wanted to chime in as this is my first post. I'm very sure not my last. History: 500-600mg hydro or oc a day, mixed and matched. Pretty much 30mg hydro every 1 1/2 hours. Did this for about 4 years, never went into w/d once in that time. I know addiction well as I was a former ghb addict for 5 years where I did that every hour upon the hour and then every 2 hours through the night. I had to literally take it every 2 hours and woke up on the dot. SO..with that being said, addiction in it's very extreme has been a part of my life for over 10 years. I never wanted to feel w/d, so I made sure I never ran out. And the sad part is, I have never really minded it, even with the extreme dosing schedule. I'm not sure why it never really bothered me and I never felt chained as most do. However........I know I can not continue with such a scheudle and especially in my industry (entertainment) I travel a ton and keeping enough drugs to go around like I do is literally insane. Boarders, customs, ect ect.. I'm very lucky I'm not in a prison overseas. SO, with that being said, there are many negatives I can find when I dig and now as of late, the hydro was doing nothing for me, besides making me content with being a lazyass. The past two years have shot by and progress in a career has literally become stagnent.

So. with that being said, I have become tired of having to plan in advance so much and it's honestly been holding me back and I see that loud and clear. I made an appointment with the SUB doctor two weeks ago, but canceled twice, because I was in fear of w/d. When I tried to wait to see how long I would go before w/d, it was only a few hours before anxiety set in and 5 hours before real w/d's. This was too much so the last few weeks I have done a major (in my eyes) tapper program and have now gotten myself down to 200-250mg a day. This is half my normal dose, but still a very large level. Never the less, a great achivement in my eyes before SUB induction. This test was something I wanted to do for myself, so I would continue the same pace with SUB, because I don't want to stay on it longer than a month or two tops.

I am hopelessly an addict and am very fearful of the sober life, but I also really don't know what the sober life is, because as long as I can remember, besides high-school, I've been an addict. So, when digging deep to find that inner peace with sobriety, the only thing I can associate myself to, would be when I was 15 or 16 haha. That is a strange feeling, because I was actually a pretty sober kid all through school. I had a tramatic event happen when I was 16 with family death and also very bad experience with a long time girlfriend, which lead me to such a severe escape mentality. I really am hopeing SUB will give me the breathing room to get my sh$t together for w/d's at least. I've joined a gym, started eating healthy and have many many goals I want to reach very soon, so all the places are set for recovery. The only thing left to come to the table, is.....me.

Anyway, I don't really have any questions as I've read till my eyes bleed and know all the pro's and cons of sub. My biggest fear is that I will never feel content being sober, but I'm pretty sure that's the main fear all of us have here.

Thanks for all your input that I've read and I'll be chatting and giving my progress soon enough. If there are any thoughts anyone wants to share or adivce, I'm all ears.

M.
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Unread 03-02-2007, 06:56 AM   #2
jascade
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Hey M,
Just want to say hi and welcome, it sounds like you are ready for a change in your life and you can do it. Please hang around, get to know everyone and let us get to know you.
Go rest those eyes and we will chat soon.
Take care,
Susan
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Unread 03-02-2007, 08:45 AM   #3
gotoffmdone
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M,
Welcome a BOARD and thank you for posting some of your story. There is a couple of things that all of us probably have had in common at one time or another. As you mentioned, you consider yourself as being lucky at times. We all have. The other thing we no doubt have in common is our hatred of withdrawals. Keeping those at bay is usually the driving force behind most of the things we have done in which we consider ourselves as being lucky we've had less consequences than we, otherwise, could have.

As you can tell, you do not have to wait long between your last dose and the withdrawals setting in when it comes to your DOC, hydrocodone. How long you have to wait between the last hydro you take and the starting of the Sub, is an individual thing. Going from hydrocodone to Sub seems to me, based on what I have read of other's experiences, to offer the best results in terms of Sub's ability to make a huge difference in your recovery.

When Sub induction day arrives the goal is NOT to be in exruciating or unbearable pain due to being in withdrawals. You just have to be in mild withdrawals according to the scale referred to as COWS. It is copied below from a website in case you are not familiar with it.



Buprenorphine Induction.

For each item below, a number is entered that best describes the patient's sign or symptom as it relates ONLY to their opiate withdrawals. In my case, I take the blood pressure medication, Metoprolol. It also helps with reducing my heart rate. If for some reason, I did not take my medication on Sub induction day, it would be difficult to determine if my elevated blood pressure and/or heart rate, one of the most prevalent signs of opiate withdrawals, would be as a result of opiate withdrawals or, my not taking my medication. More than likely if my BP and HR was extremely elevated, it would be a combination of withdrawals and no medication but it would be hard to know how to assign a number. Of course taking my blood pressure medication, could mask a couple of very common opiate withrawal symptoms by keeping my BP and HR down even though I would be in withdrawls. This is the same problem but in reverse.

CLINICAL OPIATE WITHDRAWAL SCALES (COWS)

Resting Pulse Rate: (record beats per minute)
Measured after patient is sitting or lying for one minute
0 pulse rate 80 or below
1 pulse rate 81-100
2 pulse rate 101-120
4 pulse rate greater than 120

Sweating: over past テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづ ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδ テつεδづつづδεつづδづつス hour not accounted for by room temperature or patient activity.
0 no report of chills or flushing
1 subjective report of chills or flushing
2 flushed or observable moistness on face
3 beads of sweat on brow or face
4 sweat streaming off face

Restlessness Observation during assessment
0 able to sit still
1 reports difficulty sitting still, but is able to do so
3 frequent shifting or extraneous movements of legs/arms
5 Unable to sit still for more than a few seconds
Pupil size
0 pupils pinned or normal size for room light
1 pupils possibly larger than normal for room light
2 pupils moderately dilated
5 pupils so dilated that only the rim of the iris is visible
Bone or Joint aches If patient was having pain previously, only the additional component attributed to opiates withdrawal is scored
0 not present
1 mild diffuse discomfort
2 patient reports severe diffuse aching of joints/ muscles
4 patient is rubbing joints or muscles and is unable to sit still because of discomfort

Runny nose or tearing Not accounted for by cold symptoms or allergies
0 not present
1 nasal stuffiness or unusually moist eyes
2 nose running or tearing
4 nose constantly running or tears streaming down cheeks

GI Upset: over last テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづ ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδ テつεδづつづδεつづδづつス hour
0 no GI symptoms
1 stomach cramps
2 nausea or loose stool
3 vomiting or diarrhea
5 Multiple episodes of diarrhea or vomiting
Tremor observation of outstretched hands
0 No tremor
1 tremor can be felt, but not observed
2 slight tremor observable
4 gross tremor or muscle twitching

Yawning Observation during assessment
0 no yawning
1 yawning once or twice during assessment
2 yawning three or more times during assessment
4 yawning several times/minute

Anxiety or Irritability
0 none
1 patient reports increasing irritability or anxiousness
2 patient obviously irritable anxious
4 patient so irritable or anxious that participation in the assessment is difficult

Gooseflesh skin
0 skin is smooth
3 piloerrection of skin can be felt or hairs standing up on arms
5 prominent piloerrection

Total scores

テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづ ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδ テつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδε ツづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつ テδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづ ツづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδ テつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづ ツづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつ テδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづ ツεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδ テつづδづつ*Score:
5-12 = mild;
13-24 = moderate;
25-36 = moderately severe;
more than 36 = severe withdrawal


Good Luck,
Wayne

テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづ ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδ テつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδε ツづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつ テδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづ ツづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδ テつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづ ツづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつ テδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづ ツεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδ テつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδε ツεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつ テδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつε ツづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδ テつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづ ツづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつ テδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつε ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*

テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづ ツεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδ テつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδε ツづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつ テδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづ ツづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδεつεδ テつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつづδづ ツづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつ テδεつづδづつεδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつづ ツεつεδづつεδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつづδ テつづδづつ*テδεつεδづつεδεつづδづつεδε ツεδづつづδεつづδづつづδεつεδづつεδεつ テδづつづδεつεδづつづδεつづδづつ*
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Unread 03-02-2007, 09:59 AM   #4
bam55
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Makhit
Welcome.
You will be amazed how much more you will accomplish in your life when you are not bound by the chains .The amount of energy you must be putting into your doseing schedule must be tremendous.
Sub will give you a chance to step back without WD's or cravings but it will not solve all your issues that got you to this place in your life.The extent of your usage,time and amount,will make it difficult at best to use Sub for 1-2 months and then be all better.After ten years of use whats the huge hurry?We all understand wanting to be free of all drugs and Sub can help you get there but that short of plan sounds over optomistic to me.The goal is to be opiate free forever right?If your 1-2 month plan does not work plan a back up plan now.Just to pull a number out of my butt I think 4-6 months is more realistic and this is coming from someone who tapered from Sub in 30 days.
I wish you well.
Bill
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Unread 03-02-2007, 11:29 AM   #5
lynn313
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Hey mr. m i read your story' and like so many of us we are all pretty scared at one point. But the sober life is so much better then the high life. make sure you have god in your life as he has help me so much'' I have been sober almost 4 months and it was and is the fight of my life'' the 12 of march will be 4 months. All i can say is good luck and if i can do this anyone can' you just have to want it more then anything in your life. good luck and please keep us posted. There are so many good people here to talk to' They have all help me when i needed someone so bad '' I can tell you if it was'nt for some people here i would'nt be clean today.. good luck and god bless lynn313
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Unread 03-02-2007, 11:31 AM   #6
okie
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Welcome!
Sounds like you have a good plan, congrats on tapering down thus far too! Thats a huge thing I could never ever do no matter how hard I tried..I admire that greatly!

Withdrawals, yes the thing that runs our lives..all I can say is once you start sub within the first hour they are generally gone especially us hydrocodone types..
Did want to add be sure not to take oxy in the next few days because of the long half life...so stay away from them for simplicity. Those of us that go thru induction from hydro have an easier time since hydro has a short half life, its the methadone and oxy transfers that are tricky..since you have read you prolly have read several times what to do and how to do it so you will be fine!! Positive attitude!

You definitely have made some sound plans regarding going on sub, recognizing your earlier problems and the source of your pain is a big help when trying to figure out how to move in the right direction.
I personally recommend journaling, writing of any sort as a very cathartic practice to help us exorcise our demons.
Try not to be nervous, this is a huge positive change and you will do wonderfully!

Glad to have you here with us and wishing you the best!
Michelle
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Unread 03-02-2007, 11:40 AM   #7
NancyB
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Hi Makhit and welcome.
Please read this FAQ about precipitated withdrawals:
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#70
The times given are guidelines, as you know best about your withdrawals. Mild to moderate WDs are what you need to be in. Pupil dilation is oftentimes a very indicator as anxiety can sometimes have the symptoms as WDs.
Here's a pdf that you can print out that has the COWS that Wayne posted above:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf

Once you get stabilized on the bupe, that's the time to begin looking for a support group. Whether it be individual/group counseling, something like SMART, AA/NA, etc. to help you with your fears of and addiction-free lifestyle. Plus we're here too.

We have 'chats' just about every night also, this topic announces a time, or just check up at the top of the page to see if anyone's in the chatroom.
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1643

Let us know how you're doing, if you have questions, or whatnot.

Again, welcome and congratulations on taking that big step to help YOU!

Nancy
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Unread 03-02-2007, 10:50 PM   #8
MakHit
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Thanks guys/gals ! I feel very happy that I found this board. I am getting a small cold right now (typical) that isn't a w/d sign,but I think, since I've been tappering so much, my body is weak and let this in. I'm still going for it Monday, even with this cold. Thank you all again and I'll keep updating my progress along the way. I'll cut the OC out tomorrow. I've cut it down to only 40mg oc and the rest hydro, but I'll now switch to all hydro.

Ohh and the w/d chart is very helpful. I feel I would be in mild/moderate w/ds after about 12 hours, but I'm gonna go longer for sure and try to make it to 18hrs.


Anyway, ahhhhhhhh the time is a comin!

Mak
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Unread 03-02-2007, 11:05 PM   #9
bam55
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MakHit
Try and ignore the cold as much as posible,it may be a little withdrawl or like you said a bug jumping on board in your stressed out state.Trust me you will not miss the hydro once you get stabalized on Sub.That is probably hard to believe right now but you will see.
Bill
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Unread 03-03-2007, 12:17 AM   #10
nursejoan
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makhit,
we were all afraid of withdawls. but if you are lucky like me you can sleepduring part of it. i went to sleep and when i woke up i was in withdrawls enough to start suboxone. the withdrawals decresed to a much more comfortable level imediatly. by the end of the day i felt that i knew i would be able to do this. i was like you i had a bad norco habbit for eight years. i never went more then a day without and that was only because i had no pills. as soon as i was able to get pills i would. i never thought about stopping because i was afraid of withdrawals. i had no idea that suboxone excisted. if i knew then what i know now i would have been clean years ago.
momovsix
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Unread 03-03-2007, 12:30 AM   #11
Bassdad
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MakHit,

WELCOME to NAABT. I truely hope you find your answers.Livin sober is differant,it's nothin to be afraid of. Once you are stable on Buprenorphine you will feel a bit differant,no doubt....If you have any concerns or questions,please ask them,it's a good way for us to all grow.I look forward to getting to know you better.Hang out and do alot of reading about this treatment.This forum has an informational section on the buttons at the top part of this page,just push and learn.Learning and reading about treatment will spark questions you will need to know the answers to.Good luck.See ya around.

Later,
Bassdad
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Unread 03-08-2007, 05:57 AM   #12
MakHit
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Well everyone. I made it through the first three days now ! Yessssss.

I was so scared of pw/d's that I let myself get into pretty horrible w/ds from my hydro before I went in. I was actually coming out both ends haha when I was in the waiting room (well, bathroom) and then felt, ok....this has to be long enough before I take this stuff. Alas it was. I started out at 4mg, felt better and better over the hours and kept that first day at 8mg total. Today is day three, I'm a person that is wanting to tapper pretty fast and am ready to get on with a sober life, so I've managed to stay at 4mg total today at day three. Not too bad for a 500mg hydro a day habbit a few weeks ago eh... I'm in intensive work out training that I've signed up for. A personal trainer yelling at me for 3 hours a day. 3 days a weeek. This has made all the difference in my progress. Excercise is really the key to success in my humble opinion. I'm still very far away from the prize, but I'm going to keep a constant watch over myself and push myself as much as I can each day. By the end of each day I'm exausted mentally and physically, by letting myself be in mini w/d most of the time, but I also get some releif from this sub and it then get's me motivated to push myself again.

Thank you all for your support even though I'm a new guy. I am going to try and stay at 4mg tomorrow as well and then start a tapper of .5mg every 3 days off. Then hopefully by the end of the month, I'll be done with it all. That's my plan, we'll see if it works. As far as cravings. I've only had one and that was right when I woke up, because I was so used to taking something it was just habbit to think of taking it. I then realized today, that I didn''t feel like taking it right after I woke up. Woah, that's something new.

Anyway, I'll keep you all updated with my progress. Also any of you newbies starting sub for a tapper plan. I say, anyone with 200mg hydro a day, can be held at 8mg sub and under no problem. Don't go up any more than that if you are wanting to be finished with opiates soon.
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Unread 03-08-2007, 08:02 AM   #13
gotoffmdone
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Congratulations. I understand how you feel about wanting to be drug free totally and completely. You are young and you have an opportunity before you that I would love to have had when I was taking hydros and oxys, and that being the opportunity to have a drug like Sub available to me. You are trying to get clean at an an age where I had not even taken the first pill.

I was thirty when I got addicted. I have thirty years of success in my personal life and professional life behind me that I dwell on(too much) about how good I had it and also, how bad I blew it. If Sub had been around when I was your age, by the time I needed treament, I could have avoided these last 20 years of pure, unadulterated misery and loss. Now I am 50 and am trying to start over and addiction has altered my brain in such a way that even with Sub, I am having a tough time feeling anything like my former self. But that, IMO, is because I took methadone for ten years. And I took methadone because there was no Sub. Methadone, to me, is a cure(if you define cure as just not taking your original DOC) much worse than the illness.

I have been through so many cold turkey detoxes I can't really remember them all. But I had to try and STAY clean from meetings and trying to work those loveable 12 steps before methadone. After I got on methadone, I never went to a meeting. I did not feel I was clean and I wasn't. I only changed drugs. Well it did not work and last Sept., after 10 years on methadone, I went on Sub.

Getting off hydros and oxys is a piece of cake compared to staying off. I know you are anxious to get off Sub. But easy does it. Stay as low as possible and when the time comes, Sub will let you know how best to get off of it. Sub has its own wd syndrome and it will dictate to you how to get off of it. Slow and steady will win this race. You have a great opportunity to make it. Best of luck.

Wayne
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Unread 03-08-2007, 10:51 AM   #14
bam55
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MakHit
Wayne has some good advise there for you.You are doing everything right it sounds like.I agree with you that vigorous exercise is of great benifit in recovery.You are replaceing the endorphins that hydro was providing with naturaly produced ones.Will youi be able to dedicate 3 hours a day 3 days a week for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ? If so great,if not you may need to find a program that works that does not require so much maintainence.An hour a day 4-5 days a week will probably work and may be more doable long term.
Keep up the good work.
Bill
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Unread 03-08-2007, 01:16 PM   #15
CindyV
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Hi Mak
I have been on Sub for 17 days now and am at about18 Mg. This is good for me. I read your story and I see many things we have in common, (as many others do as well) I really wanted to be on 8 mg. That was my goal. I wanted to be OFF this ...ALL OF THIS!!!! Sub included! I was very gung ho.....I felt like I had finally taken MY life in MY hands and I was going to be free of all medications in a short amount of time. (my dr. also made me believe that he was only going to keep me on the sub a very short amount of time as well, which was scary too). I felt this forced pressure to go from a couple hundred MG of hydro and ultram to sub and then NOTHING. It is amazing how different my attitude is now Mak. I am at 18 mg of subox and will taper slow. I know everyone is different and you will be too. I just felt you on your last post. The best way to explain the way I feel now is to just tell you that I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And not becaus I finally made it thru the terrible w/ds that I was OH SO SO SO worried about before I started sub a couple weeks ago. This weight is caused because I was trying to rush. Now that I have committed myself to this and I know that I have changed my life and that I actually like myself and this new improved Cindy much better, I feel the weight has lifted. Just give yourself some time Mak. This is OKAY! Taking Subox in my oppinion is not a crutch, it is in my oppinion a path that will lead me to where I want to go.
I have always been an all or nothing kinda gal and now I am realizing that that way of living was very very stressful. I just want to be in the middle of all and nothing LOL. Does that make sense. LOLOLOL
Lots of hugs your way, I am right here w/ ya Mak
Cindy
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Unread 03-08-2007, 02:09 PM   #16
glimmertwin
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Mak - Thanks for your story, I hope the sub works for you. Honestly, starting on sub was the only time I did NOT go into withdrawals. It was wonderful. I used to run out of my hydros way too often, to the point that I wanted to kill myself. Sub has been a miracle for me, especially for the major depression. I take 24mgs subutex and I've been on it for two years. I don't plan to ever stop.

Best of luck to you, I hope you stick around and give us your progress. It's always so interesting to read how everyone does on this treatment.

Sheryl
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Unread 03-08-2007, 07:02 PM   #17
bam55
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Mak
Another observation,because of Subs 37 hour 1/2 life ,if you do the math your effective dose is considerably higher than the 4mgs you took today.The full effect of your drop from 8mg to 4mg will not be apparent for another couple of days.I would suggest holding at 4mg for at least a few days before droping further and if you start to feel too uncomfortable bumping up a little to 6mg or so is not a step backward.It usually takes at least a week to find the dose that is the lowest you can start your taper from.
I tapered quickly but I must say your schedule concerns me.I always had a back up plan in case I found myself feeling uncomfortable or craving oxy.
I have said this here so many times that I am sure some are tired of hearing it but this is what worked for me.If on a scale of 1-10 I ever found myself above a 2-3 on the discomfort scale I would slow my taper down or bump up a little.That allowed me not to over analyze every little sensation and freak that I was heading into WD's knowing that if I became too uncomfortable I had a plan to deal with it.
Bill
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Unread 03-08-2007, 08:45 PM   #18
NancyB
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Hi MakHit, congratulations on day 3, happy to hear your induction went well.
Bill (bam55) has some great advice there concerning the halflife, plus he tapered off successfully.

One thing you might want to think of now, while you're not having cravings or withdrawals, is to think about some counseling/therapy to learn to deal with cravings and/or triggers once you've tapered off. Especially in light of your saying in your first post that you're fearful of the sober life. And get together a good support system. Of course we're here for you.

Please let us know how you're doing.
Nancy
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Unread 03-09-2007, 08:03 AM   #19
MakHit
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Hey guys / gals =)

Thank you all for the support. I'll be coming here regularly with updates as I go. I understand the half life thing. It's a new monster as I am used to taking something every few hours and w/d setting in pretty fast, so this stuff tricks your mind. Well at least my mind. I'll think I'm in w/d because that's what I would have been before, but then if I just wait an hour longer, all of a sudden it's gone. This is all obviously my brain still in hydro thinking. Also yes my tapper is ambitious (sp?) haha I should get that right if I want to be it right ? Anyway, I'll take the advice and slow my roll a little, but I'll wait for the 2-4 on the 10 before I take my sub. I usually wait till the 3 on my w/d scale and that works for me, so not too far off from your advice. Great minds think alike ? We'll hopefully great minds after all of this.

Today is day 4. Started Monday on Sub and on Thursday I managed to keep myself at 3.3mg sub haha that .3 is funny to me, but honestly made the difference in me either feeling ok or freaking out. All in my head, but it's also a powerful drug so probably really did make the difference.

I'll try to keep it at 3mg total for (Friday) technically today. I won't go any further with predictions, because well..who knows what I'll feel like, except I'm really trying to just go with what I feel is right and what I can take without being totally a nervous wreck and still able to function. I'm happy someone on my thread has tappered off of this stuff ! Wheeew getting nervous that it is just a mythical beast like the unicorn. I'll try to add to those stats of successful tappers, so these docs can write a few more good stories to get their patients in =) I do consider SUB a very very usful tool to those of us that have had huge habbits. All you house wifes on 5 to 10 hydros. Suck it up and just take the hydro hit. I would have loved to do that.

PS: I'm trademarking this so no one steal my idea: A new t-shirt... with the catch phrase "I eat withdrawals for breakfast" ...

A selective crowd will think it's funny. =) It was in my dream I was wearing it while trying to score dope with paris hilton and we found methadone gum in a pawn shop. Woah, I have no clue where that came from, but my dreams / nightmares have been in full force since my tapper... Sweet talk soon xoxo... Dark humor is the only way to go with this stuff...
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Unread 03-10-2007, 08:42 AM   #20
MakHit
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Hey guys,

Update here:

Today I stayed at 1.7mg. Yep, wow it was really hard, but I did it. I know yesterday I was a lot higher so I'm still not kidding myself with what's actually in my body, but damn I'm pretty proud of myself for this little spec of a day in this game called life.

Another one tomorrow, but I'm so tired from today.. Extreme edgy-ness pretty much the whole day, then it just stopped out of knowwhere and the body felt tired and the buzzing from the anxiety stopped and I started yawning a ton and bathroom breaks. Not like full blown w/d. Just some wimpy stuff, but I'm a wimp and had to go to work so I took a little spec of this orange thing and was able to function the rest of the night. This stuff is seriously strong guys/gals. I can not get over how a tiny little spec can get me through the tough parts.

Again, I just started this SUB fun, but my extreme tapper may have to stay for a little at one spot, I'm worn out from today. I am just sooo wanting to be off this stuff that I may be pushing it, but in my head I feel I need to do this. I've always been an extreme guy when it comes to any topic (all or nothing) I'm also very selfish, I think that's why I became a drug addict to begin with. When my dad died and major girl problem (major trust me), I just felt like I couldn't control the situations that came about and I've always had it my way... Well it wasn't my way anymore..people died and tramatic events happened that I could not control. The only thing that I could control was me (in my mind) and taking drugs made me feel like I was in control of my own emotions. I am going to be happy when I want to be and that's all I wanted to be after so much sadness. Also to add, so you all know a little dark background. My grandpa died then three months later my dad to cancer, watching him die the whole year and then watched him take his last breath, then my grandma killed herself on sleeping pills because her son (my dad) and my grandpa (her husband) were both gone. Now that was one whole side of my family in 5 months. My family split apart (other half brothers sisters) as the entire unit of a perfect life and happiness came crumbling down. Luckly we all are hanging again so that is nice.

Brief girl thing. Met the love of my life during my dads hard time and her and I fell in love. We both dated for 5 years. The fith year things got bad as she has manic/depression and is just crazy (we're still friends now as she means as much as family after the whole ordeal, but it took a while to get back to a good spot with her)...Anyway, she then that last year started dating my best friend 'well having sex with him', she got pregnant and said it was probably mine, before I knew it was really his. She had an abortion the whole time I didn't want her too or at least to think it through. I came upon one of her journals one day and me being in a crazy jealous spot, because I knew somthing was wrong.. I read the journal and found out this pretty intense situation. So bla bla bla... my friend and I duked it out, broke noses and ribs, made up. She tried to kill herself, lived and now we're all back talking and really the only reason is because we all knew we screwed up and we all still really cared for eachother, just got out of hand with drugs and no repercussions...

SO.........after all that.. I had started my love affair with ghb druing that time...hard core 24/7 use and loved every minute of it. Could have cared less that I was an addict. I was just happy I could make my self happy when I needed to when I wanted to.. Same for the pills, it just moved on to pills with the same attitude and also the attitude that we're all going to die anyway,why suffer the time we're here right ?.......Well jump to about 3 weeks ago.. This was still my attitude. And then it hit me......It was time to stop. It was over. The money 35thousand dollars in 3 years spent on drugs.. My music career and touring, stopped. I just didnt' care about anything becase everytime I would want to do something, the ammount of hydro I was on, made me just end up watching tv or doing graff and I put off all important things in life. I knew this was it... The end of the road (my road).. I will loose my career and dreams if I continue, not to mention being bankrupt in another two years. I said, should I just milk what I have to the end..........??? And then just do something crazy and kill myself in a blaze of fire that everyone would think was selfish, but cool to watch ????

Naw, that was just a thought, then my real spirit inside my mind said, what the f*** are you doing dood. Seriously, you're slapping your dad (rip) in his face with how you are acting. Everyone cares about you, but are worried, yet they know you will know when you are ready....


SO...... One night....I was ready.... And then the rest is pretty much started with my introduction at the top of this post.


There ya go..the dark selfish me that likes drugs will now have to step the f*** back and look at reason..Moderation..I'm putting myself in mini/withdrawals to get off this stuff, but to also give myself a little shot of reality to wake my ass up. I'm doing it to show, you did this to yourself and now you will feel what you have made. No one elses fault but mine..... SO..when you hear my tapper schedule in the next few weeks, just know I'm doing this because yes I like to control my own body the way I want to, but I'm also trying to slap myself around a little for all the stupid things I did to it. A controlled payback if you will.... That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Thanks for letting me share and vent.. I've learned alot about myself in the last few weeks that's for sure.

Thanks for listening, more to report tomorrow.

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Unread 03-10-2007, 12:21 PM   #21
NancyB
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Hi MakHit, Just try to remember the one thing you cannot control are the changes made to your brain and the time it will take for it to return to pre-addiction state. I understand that you're really determined to do this taper, but again, I highly suggest that you also learn some coping skills along the way so that you will be control of the cravings and triggers should they happen.

My sympathies to you for your losses.
My congratulations to you for the steps you're taking now!
Keep posting, we're here for you every step of the way.

Nancy
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Unread 03-10-2007, 04:08 PM   #22
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MakHit
I am truly sorry for your loses, all at once no less. Trauma on top of trauma, that is pretty damn awful, period.

Your super aggressive taper, well never will I say anyone cant do it, if you have your mind set you can do just about anything.
Definitely make sure you are ok mentally with all thats going on. Seems to me like writing would be a big help to you, as it has been for me, even on here but a journal as well. It can be amazing to go back and read what we even thought last week. No less while going thru the process you are now.

Dark humor, oh my dear you arent the only one..lol

I keep saying the point is to live life, and that is exactly it, just dont beat yourself up for anything you cant change.

It isnt out of control at all if your taper ends up being longer then you wanted, especially I want to point out the information on brain chemistry and changes that have happened during the course of our drug using time. Check any of the recent posts that Tim has made on paws and the like, they are extremely educational and explain the chemistry and brain changes better then I could hope to.

Keep living, that is the best anyone can do!
Hope you have a chance to relax over the weekend and enjoy your new found clarity in thought.
Michelle
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Unread 03-10-2007, 11:14 PM   #23
MakHit
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Thanks for the support again.

I am a little weaker today. I'll stick with the same 2mg dose for the next few days until I can stabalize. You're right, brain chemistry is out of wack. Also, I feel the fight is on, but if you send the troops in without back up or without rest......well the troops will all die of exaustion and then the battle is over..I loose.

So, I'm looking at this as if my brain has an army and I have to treat that army as if a real army would be treated. Hit hard, back up, wait for refuel and then hit again. Each time, hurting the enemy a little bit more. With this idea, I know the enemy can get back ups too, so I have to act before it acts.. The war game is on. Thanks agian for listening haha I can't believe I posted my whole story last night, pretty private stuff, but who cares we're all human. =)
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Unread 03-11-2007, 01:23 AM   #24
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Hi MakHit, Sounds like you have a good plan. Stabilize and then attack!

Hope you feel stronger tomorrow. Don't forget to eat, stay hydrated and get some exercise if you can. It will help the troops.

Nancy
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Unread 03-11-2007, 09:02 AM   #25
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Hahah thanks Nancy,

Yep I finally snapped out of it around 9pm or so. A little late to feel better, but I gave in and just accepted the 2mg today. Felt perfectly fine the rest of the night. I work as a DJ so it's work that many depend on and all look at me all night, so no way I could deal if I felt the way I did the last few days. Anyway, actually right now feel perfect. haha wish that were going to be the case always. I'm so tempted to just say, ok.. I'll take this one pill a day, because hell I take vitamins every day, but then I back up and catch myself and realize, this isn't a vitamin =)

Anyway, since I do feel ok today at 2mg now, maybe that will mean tomorrow I'll feel ok the rest of the day at 2mg. Then I'll start Monday again with the war games. It's my birthday Monday too, so what better day to suffer a little... I'm sure I was crying when I was born, so let's cry again to relive that birthing experience.

ok I'm tired won't go into anything more I regret when I wake up.

Talk soon,


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Unread 03-11-2007, 11:21 AM   #26
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MakHit
Remember you do not have to suffer so much to get where you want to go.If you slow down just a tad you might really benifit.The goal is to be opiate free forever ,right? A couple of days or weeks is nada in the big picture.Happy Birthday.
Bill
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Unread 03-11-2007, 04:14 PM   #27
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IMO- the goal should be "addiction free" not "opiate free" addiction is bad not opiates, addiction ruins lives opiates kill pain. Sure if both can be avoided great, but I think too many people either feel guilty or don't understand addiction and set them selves up for unnecessary pain and suffering. The most important thing is to stop the addictive behavior, then if that can be accomplished without medication, good, but people should not risk relapse by discontinuing an effective treatment for no other reason than they think they need to be opiate free...just MO.
S-
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Unread 03-11-2007, 07:13 PM   #28
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Suture
I agree,addiction free is what I meant.You do have a way with being very precise with words and advise.Frozen once made the observation that"Suture is always right" and he meant it.I know you never made that claim and its a lot to live up to,but I agree with Frozen.
Bill
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Unread 03-11-2007, 09:34 PM   #29
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See that's exactly what I always thought. Like I've said, I've been on a substance for a long time, addiction was present, but I know it will be hard to believe, but I never craved drugs in a seeking behavior, never obbsessed, never ruined my day over thinking of them and never hurt family by being absent from any functions. When I say I really never craved, I mean I always had what I wanted. This entire time I've been on drugs, I've always just made sure my supply was stable to a degree to know I could do 24/7. If I had the thought that I would run out all the time, I don't think I would have gone that route. It seems like needless suffering. With that said, I'm not saying I didn't have to make time to plan and do things to get, but it really was only a small fraction of my day. I guess I was really really lucky to find a way to have such a stable supply for so long. I've always taken my addiction into my own hands and said, well if I can do it all the time, then I will..I never had regrets about it until the very end of getting off. When I was on g, i loved every minute except the last month when I planned to get off, then it was game time, the addiction issue came full steam and I was in that mode. It is that time again with opiates, but this is honestly only my second or third time in maybe 10 years that I get so worked up about addiction. The whole time I'm on, I could care less. I always do have it in the back of my mind, but it really has never bothered me....until lately.

Lately, I've just felt I've let my Mom down by becoming complacent with a substance in my body at all times, she has let me do what I want with my body, but I know it hurts her deep down. Also, I did honestly start seeing the effects of such a high opiate tolerance. When I started to become sluggish, tired, un-motivated and so on, this was when I myself wanted to change my ways. SO I may have a few contradictions with my post, but I still am confused if I should be substance free and if that's the right thing to do....I also feel my soul is not getting what it should out of life while being handy-capped (sp) from getting a full picture of what life really is..

Ohhh the back and forth.. =)
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Unread 03-12-2007, 12:16 PM   #30
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Makhit,
I want to start by saying that I am truly happy for you that you have decided to make changes in your life and have chosen sub as a tool for your recovery.
I have too. However, in regards to what you said in an earlier post, I am one of those "housewives" that is on what you would call a low dose.(8-12 5mg perc. per day). In order to begin sub. your dosage or habit doesn't matter. If you are unable to stop your doc through tapering or cold turkey then you are a candidate for sub treatment.
I was on opiates for over five years due to chronic pain. As my tolerance grew I found that I needed more and more to get effective pain relief. I tried several times to get off of it on my own and suffered terribly. I was not able to "suck it up and take the hydro hit" anymore than anyone else.
I don't know you but I would guess that you are a pretty nice guy who meant no harm. I was hesitant about writing this because I don't want anyone to think that I am making a big deal out of nothing. I decided that it is important, not only to me but to someone else who might come to this forum looking for help. That they have the assurance that even though their habit may be small compared to others, they don't have to tough it out, and can get the help they are seeking.
I wish you the best,
Susan
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Unread 03-12-2007, 09:40 PM   #31
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haha it's all good Susan I didn't mean to come off like an a$$. I was just stating that sometimes people can get into worse situations than before if they go on SUB for a smaller addiction and then have SUB fill the receptors 10X more than your previous. I was honestly just trying to look out for you guys stating, as hard as it is with what you were currently doing, be very careful to not increase your tolerance with this stuff.

A good example is that although it's been pretty tough, I've been at 2mg SUB for the last 3 days now and it's been a total of 8 days on SUB. Like my first post, I was at around 50 norco's a day a month ago, so this SUB is powerful. I'm not feeling good at 2mg though, just able to get by, I want to even out then drop. SO. I guess what I'm saying is that just don't over shoot how much you really need unless you don't mind having a slower tapper or harder time in the future if you ever do decide to get of an opiate type med. The housewife thing is my fault, I was just trying to be funny, but never intended to speak to anyone specific. I forget that addiction is addiction no matter where you are on tolerance. If you can break that, then that's the most important thing.

PS...trust me...housewives are sexy and are A OK in my book.
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Unread 03-13-2007, 02:12 AM   #32
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see, I told you that you are a pretty nice guy!
thanks for understanding-
Susan
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Unread 03-13-2007, 04:58 AM   #33
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MakHit,
I was a 20 to 25 norco a day guy. I have been on Suboxone for 9 months on March 15. I started at 30mg and have tapered to 12mg a day now. I feel great!! I do not feel like I am on a drug at all. In fact, if need be I might stay on this for quite a while.
Like you, I finally hit the wall because I was becoming a lazy a$$ and my job and family was suffering. Actually, I kept up a great front and I am the only one who noticed I wasn't giving my all in my job. Now I am working out 5 days a week, and feel motivated most of the time.
My advice would be, stay on a high enough dose so you feel normal??? You shouldn't feel any withdrawels and if you end it too quickly you may have a higher risk of giving back in to your DOC. Anyhow, i am a big believer in the Sub and it has helped me get my life back.
Best of Luck to You,
Cowboy
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Unread 03-13-2007, 12:14 PM   #34
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MakHit,

just wanted to say hello and re iterate what some others have said.You have spent a lifetime on drugs I don't think you can undo what took a lifetime in a month or so.Take it easy and slow coming off the sub whats the rush?let your mind and body heal and adjust and it can be done

Best wishes, and keep posting

Estaban, an old old junkie
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Unread 03-16-2007, 10:29 AM   #35
MakHit
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Hey Susan and gang...

Susan...I'm "pretty" nice ? What about I'm the best out of every one nice ? Why I gotta be just pretty nice ? haha JK. Thanks though for understanding how I word things in a message board and I do overlook other people when I type.


Anyway, just checking in...I've managed to stay at 1.7mg sub today, so going to stay here at 1.7 the next two days if I can and then down to 1.5mg by the end of the week. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for all your support everyone!
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Unread 03-16-2007, 10:29 AM   #36
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Hey Susan and gang...

Susan...I'm "pretty" nice ? What about I'm the best out of every one nice ? Why I gotta be just pretty nice ? haha JK. Thanks though for understanding how I word things in a message board and I do overlook other people when I type.


Anyway, just checking in...I've managed to stay at 1.7mg sub today, so going to stay here at 1.7 the next two days if I can and then down to 1.5mg by the end of the week. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for all your support everyone!
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Unread 03-16-2007, 10:49 AM   #37
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MakHit
You can do anything you set your mind to,thats for sure.Statistically you are fighting the odds but that does not mean you cant do it.It does mean you should have a back up plan,which it sounds like you do,in case you find you need additional treatment.Don't be stuborne or too proud to adjust your plan if you find yourself in trouble.The path less traveled can lead to success just be prepared to take a detour if necessary.
Happy trails,
Bill
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Unread 03-16-2007, 10:49 AM   #38
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MakHit
You can do anything you set your mind to,thats for sure.Statistically you are fighting the odds but that does not mean you cant do it.It does mean you should have a back up plan,which it sounds like you do,in case you find you need additional treatment.Don't be stuborne or too proud to adjust your plan if you find yourself in trouble.The path less traveled can lead to success just be prepared to take a detour if necessary.
Happy trails,
Bill
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Unread 03-16-2007, 11:32 AM   #39
MakHit
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Hey Bill

Thanks for the response. I edited that last part out, because even though this is something I've thought about, I have to seriously reconsider if this would be a good idea, until then I won't make claims like that unless they have been researched a little bit more. Anyway, anything is possible with the mind I do agree. Talk soon =)
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Unread 03-16-2007, 11:53 AM   #40
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Hi MakHit! Happy to hear of your good progress. I agree with Bill, have a back up plan, *just in case*, and stay positive. Love your sense of humor.
Keep us posted.

Nancy
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Unread 03-17-2007, 10:00 AM   #41
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Hey NancyBizznizzleMcScrizz and everyone else. haha sorry I couldn't help my self.

Update on me, tough day, but the night at my work went well. I work in clubs, so this is a scarey time for me when I feel vulnerable mentally, but I talked with my mom for an hour before I went into work and she pepped me up extremely well and I did fine and feel fine now too. I think obsessive behavior compounds w/d type feelings or brings them out more prononced than they really should be, if the focus is always on that, instead of just enjoying the day. I was a wreck this afternoon, shakey and thinking what the point of sobriety is? Thinking to myself, I have screewed myself forever by when I took G the way I did. If you read up on the new reports that are out about g, you'll be amazed at what it actually dose to the brain and body. It's a deal with the devil and I honestly think it's worse than opiates any day. The w/d from g were short, but extremely intense, so much so that I had to have someone with me for two of the first days, as dellerium sets in and the entire two days are like a horrible dream state. Very crazy and then add the regular part of the w/d which is like a benzo and alcohol opiate mix withdrawal. Very very intense I can't describe to you all.

Anyway that wasn't the point, the point was, I started trying to talk my mom into thinking I've done something to my neurotransmittors for ever. The new study on g says it actually is a neurotransmittor in a sense and actually increases all sorts of crazy brain function. I call G "the holey grail" , because of what it dose if you are on it 24/7,..Very simply put...it makes you look, feel sound have sex, sleep dream and obtain your goals and crativity all the while being calm and smoooth and with no toxic repercussions on the body. Even with 24/7 use... SO...this funking drug seduced me when I was younger, thought how could you say no to that right ? Well...the party ended 5 years later and I honestly think I did something to myself with that stuff to now I just picked opiates up like nothing. I knew there would be horrible w/ds with opiates too and I could have cared less..Very strange how my brain works. Anyway, with more science coming out on g in the coming years since it's now sold by Orphan Medical and test cases and studies are coming closer to long term pros/cons, I'll hopefully begin to figure out how I can get my brain working after opiates no less, but seriously after g too. If something was seriously screwed up with that stuff, then I need to nip not only how to live free from opiates, I need to know how to fix what I may have done to myself after the g use too. I haven't touched g in years and years, but the two caps every hour of every day for 5 years did something major to my reward system in my brain. More so that with even opiates I think. Anyway just rambling and my moms answer to all my neurotic talks was.........just stop and suck it up... haha I loved it and the rest of the night, I did exactly that.

I'm looking into some substances, amino acids and fatty acids in maybe some sort of compoud to try and see if these things can get our brains working faster with diet and health. Anyway....to conclude....1.7mg sub,,
so day two of under 2mg. =) ahh yeah.
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Unread 03-17-2007, 11:03 AM   #42
MakHit
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* Garcia FB,
* Pedraza C,
* Navarro JF.

Departamento de Psicologia, Facultad de Psicologia , Universidad de Malaga, Espana.

AIMS: The article offers an updated review of the main pharmacological aspects of gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB), as well as its clinical and behavioural effects. DEVELOPMENT: A number of pharmacological, neurochemical and electrophysiological studies have clearly shown that endogenous GHB plays a role as a neurotransmitter and/or neuromodulator in the central nervous system (CNS). GHB displays specific synthesis, release and reuptake mechanisms, as well as particular binding sites that suggest the existence of a central GHBergic system. This substance, popularly known as 'liquid ecstasy', is also a potentially abusable drug; if administered for prolonged periods of time it can lead to dependence and withdrawal symptoms after the patient stops taking it. Its chief behavioural actions include sedation/sleepiness, induction of absence seizures, catalepsy or reduced aggression, among others. Some of these effects appear to be related to an interaction that has been reported to exist between the GHBergic system and the dopaminergic and GABAergic receptors in the CNS. From the clinical point of view, its use has been approved in some countries to treat the narcoleptic syndrome, and it has also been considered for possible use in the treatment of alcohol or opiate abuse. Finally, recent studies conducted with laboratory animals suggest the existence of a possible neurotoxic effect following prolonged administration in abusable dosages. CONCLUSIONS: GHB is an extraordinarily interesting compound. It acts as a neurotransmitter/neuromodulator in the CNS. It is also an abusable recreational drug and may also be used to treat a number of different pathological conditions, the most important of which is narcolepsy. The possible development of neurotoxicity following prolonged administration, however, imposes considerable limitations on its usefulness in clinical contexts.

gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid (GHB) is a short-chain fatty acid that occurs naturally in the mammalian brain and is formed primarily from the precursor gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). The properties of GHB suggest that it has a neuromodulatory role in the brain and has the ability to induce several pharmacological and behavioral effects. GHB has been used clinically as an anesthetic and to treat alcoholism and narcolepsy. Furthermore, GHB has emerged recently as a major recreational drug of abuse. GHB appears to have dual mechanisms of action in the brain. Biochemical data suggest that the intrinsic neurobiological activity of GHB might be mediated through the GHB receptor, which is separate and distinct from the GABA(B) receptor. However, many of the pharmacological and clinical effects of exogenously administered GHB, including the properties of addiction, tolerance, withdrawal and intoxication, are probably mediated via the GABA(B) receptor, where GHB might act both directly as a partial agonist and indirectly through GHB-derived GABA.

mma-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB) can be synthesized in the brain but is also a known drug of abuse. Although putative GHB receptors have been cloned, it has been proposed that, similar to the behavior-impairing effects of ethanol, the in vivo effects of pharmacological GHB may involve metabotropic gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) GABA(B) receptors. We developed a fruitfly (Drosophila melanogater) model to investigate the role of these receptors in the behavioral effects of exogenous GHB. Injecting GHB into male flies produced a dose-dependent motor impairment (measured with a computer-assisted automated system), which was greater in ethanol-sensitive cheapdate mutants than in wild-type flies. These effects of pharmacological concentrations of GHB require the presence and activation of GABA(B) receptors. The evidence for this was obtained by pharmacological antagonism of GABA(B) receptors with CGP54626 and by RNA interference (RNAi)-induced knockdown of the GABA(B(1)) receptor subtype. Both procedures inhibited the behavioral effects of GHB. GHB pretreatment diminished the behavioral response to subsequent GHB injections; i.e., it triggered GHB tolerance, but did not produce ethanol tolerance. On the other hand, ethanol pretreatment produced both ethanol and GHB tolerance. It appears that in spite of many similarities between ethanol and GHB, the primary sites of their action may differ and that recently cloned putative GHB receptors may participate in actions of GHB that are not mediated by GABA(B) receptors. These receptors do not have a Drosophila orthologue. Whether Drosophila express a different GHB receptor should be explored.

PMID: 16129424 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

gamma-Hydroxybutyrate (GHB), a metabolite of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), is proposed to function as a neurotransmitter or neuromodulator. gamma-Hydroxybutyrate and its prodrug, gamma-butyrolactone (GBL), recently received increased public attention as they emerged as popular drugs of abuse. The actions of GHB/GBL are believed to be mediated by GABAB and/or specific GHB receptors, the latter corresponding to high-affinity [3H]GHB-binding sites coupled to G-proteins. To investigate the contribution of GABAB receptors to GHB actions we studied the effects of GHB in GABAB(1)-/- mice, which lack functional GABAB receptors. Autoradiography reveals a similar spatial distribution of [3H]GHB-binding sites in brains of GABAB(1)-/- and wild-type mice. The maximal number of binding sites and the KD values for the putative GHB antagonist [3H]6,7,8,9-tetrahydro-5-hydroxy-5H-benzocyclohept-6-ylidene acetic acid (NCS-382) appear unchanged in GABAB(1)-/- compared with wild-type mice, demonstrating that GHB- are distinct from GABAB-binding sites. In the presence of the GABAB receptor positive modulator 2,6-di-tert-butyl-4-(3-hydroxy-2,2-dimethyl-propyl)-phenol GHB induced functional GTPgamma[35S] responses in brain membrane preparations from wild-type but not GABAB(1)-/- mice. The GTPgamma[35S] responses in wild-type mice were blocked by the GABAB antagonist [3-[[1-(S)-(3,4dichlorophenyl)ethyl]amino]-2-(S)-hydroxy-propyl]-cyclohexylmethyl phosphinic acid hydrochloride (CGP54626) but not by NCS-382. Altogether, these findings suggest that the GHB-induced GTPgamma[35S] responses are mediated by GABAB receptors. Following GHB or GBL application, GABAB(1)-/- mice showed neither the hypolocomotion, hypothermia, increase in striatal dopamine synthesis nor electroencephalogram delta-wave induction seen in wild-type mice. It, therefore, appears that all studied GHB effects are GABAB receptor dependent. The molecular nature and the signalling properties of the specific [3H]GHB-binding sites remain elusive.

PMID: 14656321 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


ps This is just one small fraction on what G does to the mind/body...Also said to help opiate withdrawls, but I tell you, it may damn work to be honest, but the concequences if a person that did try this but then found a source, would end up like me, I discourage that. Anyway for all you science buffs, read and let me know what you think and if there are any natural ways via fatty acids , herbs or something that can reverse some of the damage I've done along top of the opiate damage. Sheehhsh this is getting me nervous the more I read about something I thought was the best thing on earth for so long. HOpefully everything can be treated easily by suppliments.
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Unread 03-17-2007, 12:24 PM   #43
bam55
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MakHit
Time,exercise and a healthy diet will give your brain and body what it needs most to heal itself.
If your sense of humor is any indication I would not worry that your brain is injured much.
You asked yourself "whats the point in being sober".There are many reasons but bottom line is you will feel better and not die from drugs.
Chemical romances(club reference in your honor) always end badly regardless of how beautifull they seem initially,just like my first marriage.
Whats done is done,focus on doing everything you can to get better and try to quit worring about the past.
Bill
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Unread 03-17-2007, 03:20 PM   #44
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Hi MakHit, just keep doing what you're doing, talking about how you feel, writing here, Bill has great advice.
Focus on now with the opiates, then go from there. (That'll give me more time to read all that stuff too... lol)

NancyBizznizzleMcScrizz
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Unread 03-17-2007, 08:59 PM   #45
MakHit
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Thanks guys/gals.

Yeah I need to stop worrying about it. I just so happen to read up on it again for some reason to see where everyone is at that was on that substance. I have quite a few friends that took the road I did as well and all are either alcoholics or opiate addicts, sooo....that's why I begain to worry about the future.. You guys are right though, just exercise and keep a positive attitude and everything else will eventually fall into place.

Talk soon,
M
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Unread 03-19-2007, 08:58 AM   #46
MakHit
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Update: At 1.6mg today.
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Unread 03-19-2007, 08:39 PM   #47
josie
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I must have missed something here. How does one split an 8 or 2mg pill into 1.6mg??

~josie
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Unread 03-20-2007, 07:30 AM   #48
MakHit
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I use a razor to cut it this small. I cut into 4 pieces and then shave off enough to equal this ammount. Don't ask me if I'm exact, because I'm sure I'm not, but I'm pretty damn close... I wish they would make 1mg or .5 mg subs with real scores down the middle for people tappering. This is really not a good way to have people tapper with the meds being ELEPHANT doses. Also the cross in the middle sucks and isn't a real score mark. I feel like an addict just trying to cut these things up, but what am I supposed to do ???? Anyway, 1.7 haha today, yep that .1 I see =)
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Unread 03-20-2007, 02:30 PM   #49
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makhit....
WHY!!!!!! ! Why are u tapering so quickly?? I am not yelling or judging, please don't misunderstand...but why are you doing this to yourself??? Isn't it great to be at a point where you're not "scheaming" and wheelin an dealin to get what you need? You can relax and feel ok now. Why don't you give your body and most importantly your head a chance to enjoy and adjust to that?? After all these years I have learned one inescapeable (sp?) fact....it's not the physical addiction that is a problem (other than the obvious pain from w/d's) it's the mental that's the killer here. I have gotten clean more times than I can count, swearing and truly meaning that I would never ever go back.....and I always did, to my disgust with myself. I always have to remind myself it's a disease of the brain, so I don't beat myself up to bad...anyway the point is it is truly the mental, not the physical. And I have found the only way to deal with the mental is time....after a while your body learns to function without thinking ..it's this time, I need this, or I better schedule my day this way because I have to get this or that...you don't function around the addiction (I know you said it was a small part of your day) but still, it was a daily or whatever routine that you could not live without...right? After a while, you get up, shower, eat breakfast (or dinner in your case ), go to work, interact with the people in your life, love, be loved....and just like getting the drug becomes a habit, that routine becomes a habit...only over time. And I mean a significant amount of time, like a year or more. Am I making sense here, MakHit? Maybe this is the wrong thread to get into this (even though I started it) but I have been reading your posts. You're great, full of energy, focused! Strong in what you want. I guess you remind me of me a bit...and it would be a wonderful thing if you could not go through future pain like I did.
You don't have to rush..I have been on methadone for 4 yrs low dose and now tapered down to 6mgs..the point is within that time I got in the habit of living normally. Now it just sucks to have to deal with the physical part of tapering from a long acting narc, which is why i am investigating sub. I just wanted to reach out to you...and thank you for answering my question about energy!!
have a great day!

I copied my post here so you could see it. Hope it gives you some food for thought, MakHit.








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Unread 03-27-2007, 09:00 AM   #50
MakHit
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Hey gang, just updating to keep my page active as well.

I'm at 1.5mg today, so this is the lowest at a possible hold yet. I did go down to 1.3 a while ago, but as you know this last 2mg that I've been at is much harder to tapper from, mostly due to me actually feeling good and productive again and so so tired of feeling w/d edgyness every day for this last month with the hydro tapper and the sub. I am feeling more and more comfortable as well to start a gradual slower tapper from here on out. I don't think I'm going to jump as quick anymore. The main reason I wanted to tapper so fast with sub, was I wanted to be able to hold at a smaller dose of sub from the start, helping me tapper in the long run faster.

Anyway, now I'm getting much more done during the day than I have in the last 3 years, loosing lots of fat and gaining the muscklesz. =) ahh yeah ladies, pick a number godd.... =) just kidding ! sheshh the testosterone hasn't gotten to me that bad yet. Also, the future isn't so bleak to me as far as being sober. I go back and forth every day, so maybe tomorrow I'll feel differently, but today, since my allergies are kicking in horrible too, maybe I can tapper and not know much of a difference, since I can hardly breath anyway =)

So... 1.5mg for the log books captin kirk.

M...
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