Addiction Survivors

Reply
Unread 02-01-2007, 08:31 PM   #1
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default Why are short-term treatments less effective?

Why are short-term treatments less effective for opioid addiction?


Opioid addiction is a chronic brain disease precipitated by fundamental, long-term, changes to the structure and functioning of this organ. It takes time to become addicted because these changes to the brain happen slowly. Likewise, to undo these changes, requires the brain to form new pathways and relearn. This also takes time, many months or even years is not an unreasonable timeframe to expect these changes to occur.

Detox treatments only remove a substance from the body. The profound changes to the brain, the hallmarks of addiction, still remain. The patient may experience varying degrees of withdrawal until the brain has time to heal. It is during this time many people relapse. The brain has in effect forgotten how to make itself happy, it has been relying on an external source of stimuli throughout the addiction and now cannot manufacture enough natural opioids (endorphins), or sufficiently perform the other functions that would maintain a normal state of well being.

If you learn how to do a complicated task like juggling, the brain will form new pathways and physically change. These changes can be seen with modern medical imagery. If you abstain from juggling for a period of time your brain partially forgets and some of the pathways and connections dissolve, as the brain begins to change back. It may never change back completely, but your behavior (abstaining from juggling) can have an impact on the physical nature of the brain. Addiction treatment is similar. You can relearn non-addictive behaviors that will help rewire the brain. The longer you are away from active addiction the more those pathways change and rewire themselves. So by changing your behavior, environment, activities, people you associate with, and just placing time between you and active addiction, will all help "heal" your brain.

Counseling can help facilitate these changes in behavior. It is also important in identifying what initiated drug use in the first place so that once the addiction is in remission similar circumstances do not trigger a relapse. Counseling and/or other behavioral therapies are essential in surviving addiction.

Peer support such as AA/NA, or online forums, aid in behavior modification and help you between counseling sessions. Conversing with others with similar experiences can help relieve the anxiety in starting a new treatment. It can help create realistic expectations of the treatment and can also serve as a 24/7 way to actively work your recovery plan.

Medication assisted treatment, such as with buprenorphine treatment, can help allow you to change your behavior, as mentioned above, by reducing the cravings and withdrawal that are normally present when someone stops taking their drug of choice.

Through treatment and behavior modification the brain begins to change back. Shorter treatments (detox treatments) do not allow sufficient time for the brain to adjust. This leaves the patients feeling the effects of the brain changes, the withdrawal symptoms can last many months as the brain slowly relearns addiction free life. Few patients can endure the depression, discomfort, dysphoria, insomnia, irritability, and the other symptoms characterized by this disease(PAWS). Many will relapse.

Methadone is the most studied medication ever. Many detox vs. maintenance treatment studies have been done. Much of the knowledge base of detox vs. maintenance treatments stems from this. Similar studies with buprenorphine have overwhelmingly concluded that longer term treatments have a much higher likelihood of preventing relapse, disease, and death due to overdose. Some physicians have gone as far as to call short term detox treatments, malpractice, because a 3-7 day treatment may only serve to lower the patients' tolerance, while increasing the potential for depression, placing them at greater risk of fatal overdose, or suicide, while doing nothing to treat the brain disease of addiction.

Different patients respond differently to treatments and almost everything in biology has a bell curve associated with it. There will always be people on either side of the extremes, that don't fit the norm. Determining what treatments are most likely to work for you is something you and your health care professional should evaluate considering your unique situation. There are as many treatment plans as there are individuals. Understanding opioid addiction as thoroughly as you can, will help you to determine which one or combination is best for you.

Tim
__________________
A


Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
18 Users Say Thank You to TIM For This Useful Post:
Thank You (10-16-2012), Thank You (11-03-2009), Thank You (11-14-2016), Thank You (04-20-2010), Thank You (09-27-2010), Thank You (03-22-2012), Thank You (04-13-2013), Thank You (05-17-2011), Thank You (07-31-2011), Thank You (10-19-2010), Thank You (10-27-2011), Thank You (11-04-2011), Thank You (11-20-2010), Thank You (12-21-2011), Thank You (05-31-2013), Thank You (05-31-2013), Thank You (02-25-2010), Thank You (10-15-2012)
Unread 02-04-2007, 02:02 AM   #2
ExOpiate
Senior Member
 
Posts: 215
Default

I FINALLY "GET IT". Thank you for this. I finally get it and feel more secure in my choice for this route.

I just hope my doctor will follow me through as so many other docs.providers just change their minds from what I have read. I WANT this to work and will adhere to all I am supposed to do - I just need fo rmy physician to be on the same page as me (I think he is and will remain) - not like others.
Thanks again. ex
ExOpiate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-04-2007, 11:53 AM   #3
kizevin
Member
 
Posts: 92
Default

ExOpiate,

You just said one of the most important things you can in your recovery. You WANT it to work. The more you make efforts to make the treatment work and stay positive, the more likely it is you will succeed.

TIM, Thanks for the post. The other day I was considering starting a thread with an opening question of, "Do you think that bupe treatment should be tried first as a primary treatment? Or, do you think that other avenues such as detox and therapy should be tried first with bupe remaining as an alternative to those who are not benefited by the former method?" I think you answered that. It appears to me that I was setup for failure with my detox at my treatment center. I was not given much help. I just got the methadone out of my system and was told to get other help such as AA/NA meetings, group counseling, one-on-one psychological therapy, etc. Not much attention was paid to the actual changing of my brain, which was severely altered.
kizevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-16-2007, 03:53 PM   #4
glimmertwin
Senior Member
 
Posts: 701
Default

I don't believe short-term sub treatments work, either. I know someone who still believes in this, and what always happens is this: she takes the sub for one week, and she's on her pink cloud, everything is wonderful. She's feeling happy. And then after a couple or three months, her life is miserable again. Her depression is back. She's taking too many hydrocodone pills again. So, she goes back to the sub doctor and repeats the whole thing. She's done this so many times and still doesn't get it.

I call that suboxone abuse. The hydro supply dries up and they go running to the sub doctor for help. I skipped all that and decided to go long term. I'm almost two years into my treatment and my life is better all the time. I still have things to deal with, lots of counseling, lots of tears. But I'm doing it without using. I'm no longer abusing drugs. And just because of that, I'm happier.

Sheryl
glimmertwin is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to glimmertwin For This Useful Post:
Thank You (10-27-2011)
Unread 02-18-2007, 05:08 AM   #5
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

If the changes in the brain were the result of an external stimuli being fed into it, wouldn't such external stimuli need to be withdrawn in order for the brain to "heal."

I am wondering because suboxone is an external stimuli, so, what happens when it is withdrawn?

Also, when the studies confirming the long term treatments were more effective, does that mean that the patients were able to come off buprenorphine effectively, or is the effectiveness refering to time while they are actually on buprenorphine? If you know of any specific studies about this (studying people coming off long term bupe maintence, I would love to read them. Thanks
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to ryannnn65 For This Useful Post:
Thank You (10-27-2011)
Unread 02-18-2007, 11:26 PM   #6
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Ryan,
The goal of addiction treatment is to treat the addiction, which is a life threatening condition. Once the addiction has been successfully treated, the physical dependence to the treatment medication can be dealt with. For that, a slow and gradual taper is very effective.

In a 2003 study published in the Lancet, 20 people were given a one week detox of bupe and the other 20 were given maintenance at 16mgs. Both groups were offered the same counseling and drug testing throughout the one year study. NONE of the people in the detox group remained in the study more than 60 days, while 16 of the maintenance group remained in treatment the entire year and remained illicit drug free. 4 people in the detox group died (20%) vs. 0 in the maintenance group. Other studies, such as this, show that inadequate treatments, place the patients at higher risk of relapse and death.

The point is, the addiction must be successfully treated before any thought should be given to coming off the treatment medication.
Tim

TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to TIM For This Useful Post:
Thank You (10-13-2010)
Unread 02-19-2007, 03:48 AM   #7
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Yes, Tim I understand all that, and many studies confirm what you have said, but what I was wondering if there are studies where the long term patients were ever taken off suboxone, and how they did after that?

In the 2003 study, it doesn't say whether the successful patients ever came off suboxone. Is there any study on that? Thanks Tim
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to ryannnn65 For This Useful Post:
Thank You (10-27-2011)
Unread 02-19-2007, 12:25 PM   #8
Pattiann
Member
 
Posts: 58
Default

The above posts are the very reason I wrote a letter to BCBS demanding to know who and why the decision is made to stop paying for Sub after six months? Any patient who can not afford to purchase the pills outright is doomed for failure. Any dedicated patient, which is what I consider myself, is just beginning to learn about their disease at six months. I wonder if any studies are done on the people who hit this brick wall? Sorry if you feel I have jumped topics here. Is there anything anywhere that states what was intended with Suboxone as far as a time frame? There are so many of us that are living proof that this drug works and saves lives, I know it did mine, so is there an "average" time span with this med? Take Care Pattiann
Pattiann is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2007, 09:39 PM   #9
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

The only answers I have seen really do not answer the question. They say "every one is different" or that is between you or your doctor" or "the point is to be on the medication as long as is needed." So, I don't think there is an answer to this.

What I see, with the exception of about two people on this board, is that people stay on until their doctor makes them come off. And then they usually find a new doctor. Luckily, my doctor has no plans to stop my medication, but I do have to pay out of pocket.
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2007, 10:15 PM   #10
Brett
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,760
Default

How does all this relate to those who were severely dependant on opiates? But not addicted. You can have a growing tolerance, taking 500mg per day of oxy and not be addicted. If you are minus the addictive behaviers but take the same amount as someone who has to lie steal and cheat to get the drugs. what is the difference?
Let me try to explain this better;
If you have 2 people.
person #1 takes 25 norco per day prescribed by a doctor, does not have the addictive nature, doesnt have to go to extremes to get pills.
person #2 takes 25 norco per day, buys them off the street, lies steals and cheats. Will do anything to obtain a supply.
What is the difference in these 2 people? Why does one have a brain disease the other doesnt?
Does the actions cause the brain disease and not the opiates?

Brett
Brett is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2007, 10:19 PM   #11
Brett
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,760
Default

I beleive short term treatment is good for short term addiction.
If a person was addicted for a short amount of time (3 months or less) A short stay on bupe would be better than a long stay.
Some could end up more dependant on bupe than there DOC.
Short term treatment has its place, But not for the most of us.
I always look at it this way, How long did you spend using? It will take you just as long to recover.
Brett is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2007, 10:20 PM   #12
glimmertwin
Senior Member
 
Posts: 701
Default

PattiAnn -

When you referred to BCBS, are you talking Blue Cross Blue Shield? And did they stop paying for your sub after 6 months?!

That's my insurance company, too. My husband works for GM and he has BCBS benefits, and they have been very good to us. They paid for all of my treatment, including rehab and medications. I only pay 10 bucks for a month's supply. They also cover my doctor visits 100%.

Maybe BCBS benefits are different with the UAW, I don't know. But I really feel bad for you if they have cut you off. Because you are right, we don't really fully understand our addiction at 6 months into recovery. My God, we have so much more to learn at that point. I hope something can be done for you.

Sheryl
glimmertwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2007, 10:26 PM   #13
Brett
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,760
Default

Pattiann,

Average time spent on bupe?

Good question, it seems like the amount of time is growing with each person.
I have no idea how long it takes for the brain to heal from addiction/dependance. I do think most people can do a 6 month taper on bupe and be successful. Its up to each person to make that work. After the second month or so on bupe the addictive nature goes into remission, then its all about tapering off the bupe. Most of us are so happy to be free from addiction we dont want to suffer even a little. thats why you are seeing more people on bupe longer. They just dont want to suffer, any amount is too much.

IMO
Brett is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Say Thank You to Brett For This Useful Post:
Thank You (07-31-2011), Thank You (02-13-2012)
Unread 02-20-2007, 03:02 AM   #14
flier1
Senior Member
 
flier1's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,418
Default

I know that short term didnt work for me, I was in a 3 week program and relaspe 3-4 days later, now I am at 3 months with a program that will allow mw to get off when I am ready but the short term as the reason given to me was that the 3 weeks didnt allow time for the brain to heal and to close the receptors back to the norm, so IMO long term is the way to go well it is for me anyway
flier1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2007, 03:23 PM   #15
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Brett,
From what I've read the 6 month point is where noticeable changes can be seen in many cases, providing the patients was correctly diagnosed as "addicted". Patients only "physically dependent" may not be candidates for Bupe and may have good results by just tapering their current opioid.

I think the time spent in treatment has more to do with the individual's situation than the medication. The "relearning" process will vary tremendously from patient to patient. As far as a taper goes 2mgs./month (slower at the end) is a comfortable decrease according to doctors I've spoken with.

Everyday away from active addiction increases the chances of maintaining remission.

Tim
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-25-2007, 02:03 AM   #16
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ryannnn65

Yes, Tim I understand all that, and many studies confirm what you have said, but what I was wondering if there are studies where the long term patients were ever taken off suboxone, and how they did after that?

In the 2003 study, it doesn't say whether the successful patients ever came off suboxone. Is there any study on that? Thanks Tim
Ryan,
I don’t know of any studies that continue past adequate treatment periods. I think it is a difficult thing to study because each person will require a different treatment period, so the study cannot be confined to a specific timeframe. Secondly, what criteria does one use to determine when treatment should stop, and how does one account for the different variables in treatment duration, counseling, peer support, environment, and a host of other things that would be kept constant in a normal study. The cause of whatever results obtained would remain unknown.

Another reason for the lack of studies is that as with other chronic diseases in general relapse rates go up if treatment is discontinued. This is an expected fact regardless of the medication used so I don’t know that a study would tell us anything we don’t already know. What triggers a relapse is thought to be independent of what past treatments the patient may have had.

What is known is longer treatments result in less deaths, crime, relapse, and spread of diseases like HIV and HEP.

Tim
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-25-2007, 05:41 AM   #17
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Yes, That is what I figured, but it could be possible to study the mere physical effects of withdrawing the drug in relation to the time and dosage amounts, i.e. using COWS. I don't suppose anything has been done on that for patients that have been on the drug for more than a year or so.

Also, when you mention that brain changes take place at around six months typically, are you refering to brain changes in patients aho are taking suboxone for six months or changes in people who have become abstinence from all opiates in a six month time period. I am aware that 6 mix months is typical time that opiate addicts tend to normalize after abstaining from all opiates, but do you know of any documented source where they found that patient's brains have significantly normalized after six months of taking suboxone? I would be very excited to read about that, if you could post it. Thanks, Ryannn65
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-25-2007, 05:04 PM   #18
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

I don't know of any studies like you are asking about. there was some early buprenorphine only studies. These were on people not addicted at all, just to see how buprenorphine alone effects physical dependence and withdrawal. On all measures it showed less physical dependence and less withdrawal,than full agonist opioids.

Even patients on steady bupe (and methadone) maintenance show improvement to brain function after about 6 months. It's partly due to just the change in behavior and time, allows the brain to begin to rewire itself. It would rewire faster without any opioid medication, but would be painful and increase the risk of relapse tremendously. What's happening in those 6 months is the brain is "forgetting" addictive behavior. It may never forget completely, but enough that people may be able to manage it on their own after a while.
Tim
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2007, 02:18 PM   #19
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

One of the tragic parts about addiction treatment is when an effective treatment is stopped and the patients relapses, some say the treatment failed. That defies logic. The relapse following a period of abstinence during treatment proves that the treatment does work and that discontinuing treatment is what caused the relapse.

If it were any other disease where a patient does well while receiving treatment, but when treatment is abruptly removed they relapse, that would be considered evidence that the treatment was effective. How come people come to the opposite conclusion when the same circumstances occur with addiction treatment?

Tim

TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to TIM For This Useful Post:
Thank You (02-05-2012)
Unread 02-28-2007, 02:52 PM   #20
glimmertwin
Senior Member
 
Posts: 701
Default

Tim, it's because there are still too many people out there who think addiction is simply a "behavioral problem". Like Dr. Laura. I can't stand to listen to her.

My own mother thought that,too, until she saw me in my addiction for several years. She saw me struggle with it, wanting to be able to stop and not being able to. She used to tell me to simply walk away from those pills. She didn't believe in the fact that we suffer from physical, painful withdrawals. She thought it was all in our minds.

And then you have the addict him/herself. Like Anna Nicole Smith. Her exboyfriend said that he would plead to her to stop taking the painpills so much. He said she would always take double the amount. Her reply to him was that it didn't work if she took what was prescribed, so she needed more. Her boyfriend then asked her if maybe she was addicted, and she said no, because "there was a doctor's name on that pill bottle and since he said I could have them, I'm not an addict".

That's how I thought in March 2000 when I went to rehab because of my alcoholism. But when I was asked about other things, like pills, I wrote that I was taking vicodin and valium, and Excedrin PM. Everyday. And lots of it. But I told them I wasn't an addict to the pills. I actually got laughed at.

I can't believe that it has taken so many years for people to start coming around and finally seeing that we DO get addicted to prescription drugs, even though the doctor says we can take them. Now we just need to work harder in getting the truth out there that addiction is a disease, it's not just a case of bad behavior. It causes bad behavior. And I'm in total agreement with OpiateDeficient (I think that's his name). I believe my brain was wired with a deficient amount of dopamine or whatever it is that makes us feel like normal, happy human beings. My husband found an old photograph of me, with my mom and dad and two of my siblings. I was 5 yrs old in that picture, and I looked sad, while everyone else looked happy. I was always like that. I've always been able to visualize this black hole inside myself, one that I get lost in sometimes, and I feel lonely and sad and hopeless. And when I got started on sub, that horrible part of my depression went away. It was a miracle. I can't stop taking the sub. I cannot afford another relapse. I've used up all my tokens, there are none left. I can't have a glass of wine ever again, I can't take a couple of vicodin to feel like having a party again. I just don't have it left in me. I'll die.

Sheryl

glimmertwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-01-2007, 12:00 PM   #21
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Sheryl,
I totally agree. Even 50 years after the World Health Organization (followed by the rest of the medical community)classified addiction as a disease of the brain, some people still choose to ignore the proof. I think you are right and it's because they don't understand WHY addiction is a disease. It DOESN'T mean the patient is a hapless victim and bears no responsibility. It means the brain has been altered from its normal healthy state. This particular organ affects behavior, when diseased, the behavior is affected. We can now even show what parts of the brain are affected by addiction.

We are planing on adding more educational material to better explain this. I believe this is the #1 issue, understanding WHY addiction is a disease. The second most important issue is that addiction can be treated with medical and behavioral therapy. More so than any other organ the brain can be altered by our behavior. A treatment plan that includes both medical and behavioral therapies will have the best chance at success.

Tim

TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2007, 04:51 AM   #22
Mike
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,425
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TIM

Why are short-term treatments less effective for opioid addiction?


Opioid addiction is a chronic brain disease precipitated by fundamental, long-term, changes to the structure and functioning of this organ. It takes time to become addicted because these changes to the brain happen slowly. Likewise, to undo these changes, requires the brain to form new pathways and relearn. This also takes time, many months or even years is not an unreasonable timeframe to expect these changes to occur.

Detox treatments only remove a substance from the body. The profound changes to the brain, the hallmarks of addiction, still remain. The patient may experience varying degrees of withdrawal until the brain has time to heal. It is during this time many people relapse. The brain has in effect forgotten how to make itself happy, it has been relying on an external source of stimuli throughout the addiction and now cannot manufacture enough natural opioids (endorphins), or sufficiently perform the other functions that would maintain a normal state of well being.

If you learn how to do a complicated task like juggling, the brain will form new pathways and physically change. These changes can be seen with modern medical imagery. If you abstain from juggling for a period of time your brain partially forgets and some of the pathways and connections disolve, as the brain begins to change back. It may never change back completely, but your behavior (abstaining from juggling) can have an impact on the physical nature of the brain. Addiction treatment is similar. You can relearn non-addictive behaviors that will help rewire the brain. The longer you are away from active addiction the more those pathways change and rewire themselves. So by changing your behavior, environment, activities, people you associate with, and just placing time between you and active addiction, will all help heal your brain.

Counseling can help facilitate these changes in behavior. It is also important in identifying what initiated drug use in the first place so that once the addiction is in remission similar circumstances do not trigger a relapse. Counseling and/or other behavioral therapies are essential in surviving addiction.

Peer support such as AA/NA, or online forums, aid in behavior modification and help you between counseling sessions. Conversing with others with similar experiences can help relieve the anxiety in starting a new treatment. It can also serve as a 24/7 way to actively work your recovery plan.

Medication assisted treatment, such as with buprenorphine treatment, can help allow you to change your behavior, as mentioned above, by reducing the cravings and withdrawal that are normally present when someone stops taking their drug of choice.

Through treatment and behavior modification the brain begins to change back. Shorter treatments (detox treatments) do not allow sufficient time for the brain to adjust. This leaves the patients feeling the effects of the brain changes, the withdrawal symptoms can last many months as the brain slowly relearns addiction free life (PAWS). Few patients can endure the depression, discomfort, dysphoria, insomnia, irritability, and the other symptoms characterized by this disease. Many will relapse.

Methadone is one of the most studied medical treatments. Many detox vs. maintenance treatment studies have been done. Much of the knowledge base of detox vs. maintenance treatments stems from this. Similar studies with buprenorphine have overwhelmingly concluded that longer term treatments have a much higher likelihood of preventing relapse, disease, and death due to overdose. Some physicians have gone as far as to call short term detox treatments, malpractice, because a 3-7 day treatment may only serve to lower the patients tolerance, placing them at greater risk of fatal overdose, or suicide, while doing nothing to treat the brain disease of addiction.

Different patients respond differently to treatments and almost everything in biology has a bell curve associated with it. There will always be people on either side of the extremes, that don’t fit the norm. Determining what treatments are most likely to work for you is something you and your healthcare professional should evaluate considering your unique situation. There are as many treatment plans as there are individuals. Understanding opioid addiction as thoroughly as you can, will help you to determine which one or combination is best for you.

Tim

I can definitely say from experience this is true. i did both short and long and the long treatment worked with the least amount of discomfort.
Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2007, 06:36 AM   #23
TRMGM
Senior Member
 
Posts: 112
Default

Well I just started the sub tonight. After spending countless hours absorbing information on various sites. I think I'm going to take my time and allow my mind to heal. How long does that take 1yr? 2? I'm in no rush
TRMGM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2007, 12:12 PM   #24
OhioMike
Senior Member
 
Posts: 11,335
Default

Tom,

You get settled, layout and work a good program. Keep yourself on the lowest possible dose and trust me, when it's time to stop taking Suboxone, you are going to know. You trust, you have faith, you do your part and God will be right there with you. I normally do not get my personal religion into this, but, I feel you understand. If we do our part, God will bless us with a good recovery. There are Christian Based 12 step meetings, not AA or NA but they are called CR you might want to consider them. In them we do not stand up and say Hi my name is Mike and I'm an addict. We say Hello my name is Mike and Jesus Christ is my Saviour. We still do the hard recovery work, but, with God leading us.

Mike
OhioMike is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to OhioMike For This Useful Post:
Thank You (02-05-2012)
Unread 03-12-2007, 12:42 PM   #25
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

I did find some studies on this at pubmed.com. There is an ongoing six year study comparing long term methodone with bupe in terms of successfully detoxong off one or the other. So far the conclusion is that they are about the same in that not many people come off of either. (I'm sure you could find by doing a key word search there. There is bunch of experients-somes from last month, published comparing bupe to methodone.


Quote:
quote:Originally posted by TIM

I don't know of any studies like you are asking about. there was some early buprenorphine only studies. These were on people not addicted at all, just to see how buprenorphine alone effects physical dependence and withdrawal. On all measures it showed less physical dependence and less withdrawal,than full agonist opioids.

Even patients on steady bupe (and methadone) maintenance show improvement to brain function after about 6 months. It's partly due to just the change in behavior and time, allows the brain to begin to rewire itself. It would rewire faster without any opioid medication, but would be painful and increase the risk of relapse tremendously. What's happening in those 6 months is the brain is "forgetting" addictive behavior. It may never forget completely, but enough that people may be able to manage it on their own after a while.
Tim
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2007, 05:00 PM   #26
Dennis
Senior Member
 
Posts: 131
Default

hear is my story on suboxone so far-several years ago i started getting ackes and pains at work. so i started taking a vicodin here and there. fast forward a few years and i'm at pain clinics getting a 120 10/650 laraceps and in a full blown addiction(100mg daily) for a couple of years. something had to give(with me supporting a very faithfull wife and 2 daughters). My brother told me about this website and i got connected to a good dr. in my area. my appointment wasn't for 3 weeks so i tried quiting cold turkey and the best i could do was get by on 30mg a day until my dr. visit. the withdrawls from 100mg to 30mg were still hellish but i got by. my dr. gave me 4mg. of suboxone at 2pm. and every thing was cool after that.(he did make me take another 2mg. at bedtime that kept me up all night) but i didn't miss a beat in the morning. went straight to work with no cravings or withdrawls. i stayed on 4mg. a day for a week and he took me off. i lasted only a week before depression/lack of energy sent me back to the dr.(at least i didnt even think about taking a vicidin though). now i've gone another 2 weeks on 2mg. and feel the need to taper. misuse of prescription drugs has been a stronghold in my family(but not for my wife or kids) so i am determined to quit the sub as soon as possible. i just dont want to do it too soon if my brain isnt healed from the vicodin addiction. sorry for the long post and thanks for sharing your experiences. Dennis
Dennis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-10-2007, 04:49 PM   #27
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Dennis, your brain does not heal from such effects while on buprenophine, bupe only helps to stop the addictive behaviors. Once you stop bupe, you have to deal with the wd from it, and the longer you are on it, the more difficult it is. I'm not saying to get off if you think u will relapse, but it is important that you do not make decisions based on imformation that is dressed up to look official when it is really just hopeful observations at best, and downright misinformation at worst.
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-10-2007, 05:14 PM   #28
The Clinic
Member
 
Posts: 31
Default

Dennis, Your brain DOES heal while on bupe and that is the basis for the entire treatment. As with many times before Ryann is wrong. I've seen hundreds of patients who do the treatment right, for the right time and with the right amount of counseling and support do very well with little withdrawal, just like the science says it should.

Ryann, if you are still making such stupid claims with nothing to back it up after all the time you have been here, you obviously cannot learn or are unwilling to learn and should move off to an opinion or anti-science board, not a support board.
TC
The Clinic is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2007, 12:55 AM   #29
jascade
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1,273
Default

ryannn,
Please stop, as I said earlier this is a place to support people and you are anything but supportive-There is another forum that would welcome you with open arms as they have nothing nice to say about sub either. you are not helpful with your misinformation.
I know that I am not the only one who feels this way-as you can see by TC's post amoung others. Please just stop it.
Susan
jascade is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2007, 01:21 AM   #30
okie
Senior Member
 
okie's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,898
Default

TC thank you for restating the fact that the brain does heal while on bupe.
Thank you for relating that hundreds have had successful treatment, we need to hear this more often as it seems that one failure gets more focus then hundreds of success and its frustrating to say the least..
okie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2007, 01:39 AM   #31
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

I will not stop. Clinic, I posted (thanks to Ratched) a study in the thread, "Hope This is OK to Post" which discusses the science behind the protracted abstenence symptoms that occur as a result of repeated exposure to either buprenorphine or methadone. I am not saying people should not do maintenance when therir level of dependancy is great enough to require it. I only say that they should beable to make their decision based on the available data and facts, and so I posted those data and facts. That is all I am saying, you can take it or leave it, believe it or not.
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2007, 01:43 AM   #32
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Clinic, what traetment center do you work for? Are you a doctor, if so, how many patients have you seen that have come off long term suboxone with their brain healed?

You seem to have some strong opinions, which I like (meaning you, not your opinions), could you tell us your story?
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2007, 01:03 PM   #33
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ryannnn65

Dennis, your brain does not heal from such effects while on buprenophine....and the longer you are on it, the more difficult it is. ....
Ryan, Part of addiction works like memory, everyday someone is away from active addiction their brain is healing whether they are on buprenorphine or not..

In the HBO documentary:
FIVE THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT BUPRENORPHINE

1.The use of buprenorphine allows people to function normally by stopping withdrawal symptoms, eliminating craving for opiates, blocking opiate induced euphoria, and correcting the neurochemical abnormalities in the brain caused by opiate addiction. (see all 5 at http://www.hbo.com/addiction/treatme...addiction.html)

Also from HBO:
Be cautious about a program that:
•promises 24-hour detox - this rapid detoxification can be dangerous, even fatal
•promises rapid recovery - experts believe that meaningful treatment usually takes at least 90 days, sometimes much longer
(see the entire list at http://www.hbo.com/addiction/treatme...treatment.html)

Shorter treatments may be appropriate for some people, treatment is very individualized. But anyone who claims long-term treatment is wrong for everyone is making the statement despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. An initial treatment period of a year or more is not unrealistic for people with long-term addictions. Then even after that, peer support and psychosocial therapy may be needed for months or even years.

Stick with evidence-based treatments, both medications and psychosocial care can now be evaluated by the evidence. This will allow people to choose a treatment that will give them the best chance at putting their addiction in remission.

The HBO segments do a good job of explaining various aspects of treatment, especially the role of behavioral therapies and peer support. I urge all of you to view them. You can watch them on y0our computer here: http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm...html?current=5

This study clearly shows the risk of an insufficient treatment duration. (20% of the patients in the detox group died)
http://naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2982


Tim
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 09:08 AM   #34
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Yes Tim, But a commonly accepted concept in the field of addiction is that one must first abstain from the drugs before the brain can begin to heal. For example, people who take methadone may be away from active addiction, but it is well documented that their brains do not heal from the damage that has been caused by chronic exposure to opioids because they are still exposing their brains to an opioid, namely, methadone.
We know that buprenorphine has many unique characteristics, but like all opioids, it causes dependence, and withdrawal symptoms if abruptly withdrawn after a long period of use. While the damage caused by maintaining a steady state opioid in ones system is not as harmful as the constant ups and downs of active addiction, it is nevertheless repeated exposure to an opioid.
So far, as you have said, no long term studies of buprenorphine patients has been conducted measuring the difficulties that manifest as a result discontinuing the treatment. Obviously, if the brain healed while on buprenorphine there would be no need to do these long tapers we hear of.
Lastly, as it should go without saying, just because HBO says something is so, does not make it so. Though they are generally right about the nature of buprenorphine they do state the unproven assertion, that was originally asseted by those who market suboxone, that the brain heals while on buprenorphine. On this point, they are wrong-not because it is necessarilly a false statement, but because it is stated as a medical fact, and it is not.
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 09:46 AM   #35
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Ryann,
HBO didn't make those claims, doctors and scientists did, HBO only reported it. The credibility of the statement lies with the original source. Also, I didn’t say there were no studies only that I didn’t know of any that specifically answered your question.

The brain heals from addiction as mentioned in the above post. It can be seen in PET scans. The physical dependence you speak of is NOT a life threatening condition and is easily managed with medication. Addiction (uncontrollable compulsion) kills and is what the treatments address.

Old idealist views of abstinence from all medications are being replaced with harm reduction and quality of life philosophies. Of course if a person can stop addiction without medication there is no need for them to take buprenorphine. This treatment is for the people who cannot, and has shown to be a much better alternative to active addiction.

I think your unwillingness to accept the science stems from a misunderstanding of the meaning but mostly the significance of the difference between addiction and physical dependence Read this article here, it explains it well: http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=833

Tim
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 10:07 AM   #36
Sub-Zero
Senior Member
 
Sub-Zero's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,553
Default

Ryannnnnnnnnnnnn,

it is well documented that their brains do not heal from the damage that has been caused by chronic exposure to opioids—Ryan SHOW US!!!

But a commonly accepted concept in the field of addiction is that one must first abstain from the drugs before the brain can begin to heal.—Ryan COMMONLY ACCEPTED BY YOU MAYBE, WHERE’S THE PROOF TO BACK THIS UP?

Though they are generally right about the nature of buprenorphine they do state the unproven assertion, that was originally asseted by those who market suboxone, that the brain heals while on buprenorphine. On this point, they are wrong-not because it is necessarily a false statement, but because it is stated as a medical fact, and it is not.—Ryan YOU KEEP CLAIMING ITS WRONG AND PEOPLE KEEP PROVIDING EVIDENCE YOU ARE WRONG. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHY IS RYAN RIGHT AND THE SCIENTISTS ARE WRONG?

Sub
Sub-Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 11:36 AM   #37
jascade
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1,273
Default

Sub,
Don't let him frustrate you, its useless, there is no getting through-
I suggest just ignoring these idiotic posts, what worries me is how he effects new people looking for help.
Susan
jascade is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 11:57 AM   #38
Mary
Senior Member
 
Mary's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,316
Default

Hey ryannnnnnnnnnnnnnn, You just don't give up, do you? "Lastly, as it should go without saying, just because HBO says something is so, does not make it so."

And just because YOU say something, anything does not make it so. Man, really, I think you'd be better off somewhere else. Like maybe start your own gig? The Ryannnnnnnnnnn Nonsensical Board for Addiction Hoo doo Voodoo Doll Medicine? How's that sound?

I got one question, are you trying to justify your stupidity? By that I mean, since you can't seem to learn anything here or refuse to open that mind of yours, are you blaming it on sub? Because the brain doesn't heal gig? So YOUR brain isn't healing, therefore you can't learn??? (Sarcasm for those who don't know me....)

Look, have you read this one that my friend d'easci and others have posted?? Gee, it was written by a doctor, not some know-it-all punk.
http://gracermedicalgroup.com/resour..._file_0009.pdf
That shows that brain heals while on sub. Plus the reward paths heal while away from active addiction. All parts of the brain. So, just what is it that you do not comprend about this gig???


Susan, I think if the newcomers read his posts and then the responses, I think they'll get that he's just talking out of his ass has nothing to back any of it up with.

To newcomers: I was on sub for a year after a 20 year H addiction. Been off 10 months now. And I feel fine! My dose lowered naturally, like I'd forget to take it, so that was time to lower it. The taper off at the end was annoying, but having the flu would have been worse.

Everyone is different, but take what you can from posts, you can pretty much tell the people who are just plain negative about everything. They's probably complain if they found $1 on the ground because it wasn't $5.

POSITIVE ENERGY BEAMS TO ALL!!! -Mary
Mary is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2007, 12:35 PM   #39
jascade
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1,273
Default

thanks Mary, You say it so well but my guess is we will keep hearing more of the same-
jascade is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-13-2007, 08:41 AM   #40
bdog
Senior Member
 
Posts: 491
Default

Thank you Mary.This is a great illustration of how buprenorphine works.
Bdog
bdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-13-2007, 06:13 PM   #41
RemissionRocks
Senior Member
 
Posts: 783
Default

short term treatments are less effective, in my opinion, because people need the time to learn the tools of recovery. its just too tempting to go back to the dreaded life of drugs because it appears to us that it is the easier softer way. and its not.

as far as what ryan said... i really cant agree or DISagree with him. he said some things that make sense to me. nobody has the right to criticize him for what he said. this is an open forum and people should be exposed to a diverse group of people with their respective opinions.

personally, i dont think my brain has recovered that much from opiate abuse. i'm still dependant on opiates, maybe not as much, but i still am. but durring treatment, i have learned lots of things from people, both on this board, and from my therapist, and various recovery groups and meetings.

i think there are 2 types of healing when it comes to opiate addiction. theres physical, and theres mental. E.g. : learning how to cope with triggers while you are on maintenance (mental healing) VS. when you begin to physically heal (either taper or stay at a stabilized dose of bupe).

Thoughts?
RemissionRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 03:04 AM   #42
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Tim, when I say heal, I am talking about the purely physical changes in the brain as a result of chronic opiate use. Addiction manifests itself as behaviors. Only the physical effects can be seen on a PET scan, not addiction. Certainly one can heal from the addictive behaviors while on bupe (and this cannot be seen on a PET scan). However, the physical changes in the brain, which result in the months of post abstenent symptom are from the physical effects on the brain that opioids have. Buprenorphine, being a partial opiate agonist cannot will not allow the brain to heal completely from those effects until it is completely withdrawn. On the HBO show, the statements come from doctors, but I was speaking of statements on their websight which had no reference.

Also, as I said, if the brain healed from those physical effects while on bupe, there would be no need to taper off the bupe. Certainly the brain has healed from the effects of the full agonsit opioids taken years prior, but there will always be those effects created by the buprenorphine itself, and which does cause physical withdrawal symptoms--symptoms that last much longer than ordinary full agonists due to its long half-life. That much cannot be denied.
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 04:14 AM   #43
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

I don't think these links are coming out right. Here is comparison of bupe and meth for WD symptoms, not exactly what we are looking for, but its soething:
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 02:32 PM   #44
TIM
Senior Member
 
TIM's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,632
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ryannnn65

Tim, when I say heal, I am talking about the purely physical changes in the brain as a result of chronic opiate use. Addiction manifests itself as behaviors. Only the physical effects can be seen on a PET scan, not addiction. Certainly one can heal from the addictive behaviors while on bupe (and this cannot be seen on a PET scan). However, the physical changes in the brain, which result in the months of post abstenent symptom are from the physical effects on the brain that opioids have. Buprenorphine, being a partial opiate agonist cannot will not allow the brain to heal completely from those effects until it is completely withdrawn. On the HBO show, the statements come from doctors, but I was speaking of statements on their websight which had no reference.

Also, as I said, if the brain healed from those physical effects while on bupe, there would be no need to taper off the bupe. Certainly the brain has healed from the effects of the full agonsit opioids taken years prior, but there will always be those effects created by the buprenorphine itself, and which does cause physical withdrawal symptoms--symptoms that last much longer than ordinary full agonists due to its long half-life. That much cannot be denied.
Ryann,
First nobody said the brain heals completely while on bupe, just that some healing occurs. As I said above any time spent away from active addiction results in some brain healing whether you are on bupe or not. I think some of the misunderstanding stems from your distinction between physical healing and behavior healing. There is no difference they are the same thing. All human behavior is the result of physical events in the brain. Any movement any thought is initiated by physical events in the brain.

Here’s what ALAN I. LESHNER ( Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) from 1994-2001) has to say about it

…However, 20 years of scientific research has taught that focusing on this physical versus psychological distinction is off the mark and a distraction from the real issues. From both clinical and policy perspectives, it actually does not matter very much what physical withdrawal symptoms occur. Physical dependence is not that important, because even the dramatic withdrawal symptoms of heroin and alcohol addiction can now be easily managed with appropriate medications. Even more important, many of the most dangerous and addicting drugs, including methamphetamine and crack cocaine, do not produce very severe physical dependence symptoms upon withdrawal...”

You can read the whole article here, its long but worth reading http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=833#20092

You said if the brain heals while on bupe then there would be no reason to taper off; I think the opposite is true, if healing occurs there is no need to continue the medication, but you must allow time for the healing.


I agree with part of your last statement that even though bupe combined with other therapies can help end active addictive behavior, there will still be some physical dependence left behind. Yes that is true. A better medication would solve that problem as well but so far we don’t have one. In the meantime physical dependence although an inconvenience can be managed medically and people can have a normal life free of addiction. Hopefully, the patient can get to a point where behavioral therapy, environmental changes, reducing stress and other triggers, and developing tools to deal with them, can be enough that they may no longer need any medication at all, but it is a slow process, yet we have seen these results here on this board.

I hope you read the article I linked to it explains things better than I can.

Tim

p.s. How long have you been addiction free now?
TIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 02:40 PM   #45
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Sub-zero,
There are certain facts that are common knowledge and common sense, and this is one of them. I don't need to post a source because you are the only one who would be so foolish and ignorant as to doubt. Pick up any book on opiates or addiction, they will say that the drug must be discontinued in order for the person to get better. I think kindergartners even understand that--you idiot!

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sub-Zero

Ryannnnnnnnnnnnn,

it is well documented that their brains do not heal from the damage that has been caused by chronic exposure to opioids—Ryan SHOW US!!!

But a commonly accepted concept in the field of addiction is that one must first abstain from the drugs before the brain can begin to heal.—Ryan COMMONLY ACCEPTED BY YOU MAYBE, WHERE’S THE PROOF TO BACK THIS UP?

Though they are generally right about the nature of buprenorphine they do state the unproven assertion, that was originally asseted by those who market suboxone, that the brain heals while on buprenorphine. On this point, they are wrong-not because it is necessarilly a false statement, but because it is stated as a medical fact, and it is not.—Ryan YOU KEEP CLAIMING ITS WRONG AND PEOPLE KEEP PROVIDING EVIDENCE YOU ARE WRONG. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHY IS RYAN RIGHT AND THE SCIENTISTS ARE WRONG?

Sub
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 02:51 PM   #46
ryannnn65
 
Posts: 0
Default

Uh, Mary,

You must be truly stupid. You probably think we have bowling balls and green meadows in our brains. News flash--we don't. THIS IS JUST ILLUSTRATION, an explanation for lay people to visualize how buprenorphine works; an analogy.

IT DID NOT SAY THAT ANYTHING ABOUT THE BRAIN HEALING--you are delusional!!

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mary

Hey ryannnnnnnnnnnnnnn, You just don't give up, do you? "Lastly, as it should go without saying, just because HBO says something is so, does not make it so."

And just because YOU say something, anything does not make it so. Man, really, I think you'd be better off somewhere else. Like maybe start your own gig? The Ryannnnnnnnnnn Nonsensical Board for Addiction Hoo doo Voodoo Doll Medicine? How's that sound?

I got one question, are you trying to justify your stupidity? By that I mean, since you can't seem to learn anything here or refuse to open that mind of yours, are you blaming it on sub? Because the brain doesn't heal gig? So YOUR brain isn't healing, therefore you can't learn??? (Sarcasm for those who don't know me....)

Look, have you read this one that my friend d'easci and others have posted?? Gee, it was written by a doctor, not some know-it-all punk.
http://gracermedicalgroup.com/resour..._file_0009.pdf
That shows that brain heals while on sub. Plus the reward paths heal while away from active addiction. All parts of the brain. So, just what is it that you do not comprend about this gig???


Susan, I think if the newcomers read his posts and then the responses, I think they'll get that he's just talking out of his ass has nothing to back any of it up with.

To newcomers: I was on sub for a year after a 20 year H addiction. Been off 10 months now. And I feel fine! My dose lowered naturally, like I'd forget to take it, so that was time to lower it. The taper off at the end was annoying, but having the flu would have been worse.

Everyone is different, but take what you can from posts, you can pretty much tell the people who are just plain negative about everything. They's probably complain if they found $1 on the ground because it wasn't $5.

POSITIVE ENERGY BEAMS TO ALL!!! -Mary
ryannnn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 02:58 PM   #47
Mary
Senior Member
 
Mary's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,316
Default

Uh ryannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, did you not read the whole thing? What did you not understand about this gig from Page 3??
http://gracermedicalgroup.com/resour..._file_0009.pdf

"Since the blue balls are lighter in weight than the black balls, the meadow can slowly regenerate, although this is still a slow process. Since the blue balls stick in the receptors and cover the receptor holes drug craving is either markedly reduced or in most cases eliminated."

Again, please take your own advice and stop calling everyone names: " Please grow up, and if you don't have anything helpful to say, then shut up! "

-Mary
*edited for a TYPO!!!
Mary is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-14-2007, 03:14 PM   #48
Sub-Zero
Senior Member
 
Sub-Zero's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,553
Default

Ryannnn,
I want to try and set you straight but I’m afraid you may have special needs and I would be unfairly picking on you and that’s not right. I have a mentally challenged cousin and would hate the thought of intellectually superior bullies ganging up on him if he didn’t understand something.

Addiction is not as simplistic as you would like it to be. Kindergarteners would not be able to understand it as you claim. I don’t know what your damage is, but you seem to want to dispute anything good about this treatment and the people who have found it helpful.

Can’t you see the pattern even here on this board?? People are desperate, at the end of their rope, they find a doctor start sub, and in a week or so they have a whole new outlook, within a few weeks they are working again, they are rebuilding relationships and are looking toward the future with hope…YOU DON’T CALL THAT HEALING?

You have to understand, addicted people are already physically dependent on opioids, sub doesn’t make it worse, it only helps. Just because sub doesn’t take away all of the physical dependence that they already had before starting sub, doesn’t mean it causes it as you’ve said.

Sub-
Sub-Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-30-2007, 11:58 AM   #49
flowers
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1,167
Default

Bump up, this seems to be relevant for a few of us right now.
Tim wrote:
Through treatment and behavior modification the brain begins to change back. Shorter treatments (detox treatments) do not allow sufficient time for the brain to adjust. This leaves the patients feeling the effects of the brain changes, the withdrawal symptoms can last many months as the brain slowly relearns addiction free life (PAWS). Few patients can endure the depression, discomfort, dysphoria, insomnia, irritability, and the other symptoms characterized by this disease. Many will relapse.

I can vouch for this. In March 2001 I was detoxed off 1600 mgs/day of oxy. I was totally drugfree for the next 2 years. It took four months just for the goosebumps/sweating to go away. I kept going to AA and counseling because I didn't want to die. Mentally I usually felt like I just woke up and was still tired. I was mildly depressed the whole two years. Then I slipped on Ultram for 6 months, back to detox and another 3 1/2 years clean of all drugs. Still going to AA, this time the quality of recovery was better, got into exercising and healthier lifestyle, quit smoking cigs. But still "white-knuckling" it.

Relapsed AGAIN this last time in March 07 on hydro, got on sub on July 20. Sub has been like a miracle drug for me. The quality of my recovery is SO MUCH BETTER than those earlier times without sub. My depression is gone, my energy levels are better than ever. I am more focused and my mind clearer than ever (my husband might argue this point haha). So to wrap it up, I am saying that YES short term treatments are not as effective as sub treatment, the quality of recovery is ten times BETTER than without sub.

I think this is key for some of the people who haven't had recovery before sub, life is still going to be hard and full of challenges. But sub treatment allows us to face those challenges without the disadvantage of dealing with PAWS from our DOC. I can vouch for this.

So hang in there, everyone who is questioning whether sub is the right way, questioning if you made a mistake like the other website keeps saying. I made the mistake of going to that website before I found NAABT and all I found was negativity and prejudice. NAABT is like a family (I've said it before, a somewhat disfunctional family but we still love eachother)
Peace to all of you today.


edited because I don't know how to format
flowers is offline   Reply With Quote
One User Says Thank You to flowers For This Useful Post:
Thank You (02-05-2012)
Unread 09-30-2007, 03:34 PM   #50
Suture
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1,626
Default

Thanks Sandra,
This is a great thread, entertaining in parts too!!
S-
Suture is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2014 Addiction Survivors