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Unread 04-29-2006, 12:04 AM   #1
Frozen
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Default Ignorance Kills: Depression, Endorphins & Sub 101

This basic summary is the underlying concept behind all of my posts here. It explains why some people become intolerably depressed, all of the 'accepted' antidepressants can't help them, and why these patients innately gravtite to self-medicating with opioids.

___________________________________

Tormented by DEPRESSION, and the medicine isn't helping?

If you or anyone you care about is tormented by clinical depression and none of the medications seem to help, you need to read this.

Widespread ignorance regarding the endogenous opioid-depression-opioid connection, combined with the ruthless drug prohibition laws, sent me on a trip through hell and back. This ignorance also came within an inch of ending my life. If I can save someone from going through this hell by just explaining a few scientifically proven facts, I need to do it.

Tormented by depression and nothing seems to help? You're not alone. Zoloft, Paxil, Lexapro, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Cymbalta... You've tried two or three of these. They were supposed to help you feel better- but you just didn't! Sound familiar? Did you happen to notice that opioids like oxycodone and hydrocodone are the only substances capable of making you feel normal?

Depression can result from a deficiency/over reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Depression can also result from a deficiency /over reuptake of your endogenous opioids (endorphins/dynorphins/enkephalins).

Watch TV for a couple hours and you'll probably see quite a few antidepressant commercials. The cruel joke is that every single one of those commercials is just pitching yet another serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine re-uptake inhibitor product. If your depression results from an endogenous opioid deficiency, none of those products can help you.

While common medical orthodoxy remains for some reason fixated on seratonin/norepinephrine/dopamine over-reuptake as the standard cause of nearly all depression, reality says otherwise. Every person has naturally occurring chemicals in their brain called endogenous opioids . They are endorphins, dynorphins and enkephalins. These endogenous opioids are very properly named, as they are (molecularly) nearly identical to real opioids like heroin or oxy.

Some people have a natural deficiency of these vital chemicals, and have no choice but to consume opioids from an external source in order to feel 'normal'.

This is from the website (1) of an American clinic with branches in three cities:

"Underproduction or over-removal (severe re-uptake) of these endogenous opioids can be the cause of many psychiatric disorders ranging from Bipolar Personality disorders to major depressive disorders that often times manifest themselves in severe drug abuse. Unbeknownst to them, these patients use opioid medications either illicit or pharmaceutical because they are compelled to attempt to replace the endorphins, dynorphins, and enkephalins (endogenous opioids) that naturally occur in their systems at insufficient levels."

A clinical trial (2) conducted at Harvard Medical School in 1995 demonstrated that a majority of treatment-refractory, unipolar, nonpsychotic, major depression patients could be successfully treated with an opioid called Buprenorphine, even after dozens of other (non-opioid) medications had failed to provide these patients with any measure of relief. Some of these patients even endured electroshock therapy, which didn't help either.

If you suffer from this condition, your physician isn't going to tell you to urgently seek out opiates- let alone prescribe any. While many doctors are aware of the fact that numerous refractory depression patients can only be helped by opioids, an M.D. could lose his license, assets, and freedom by trying to save your life. The FDA has approved buprenorphine for the sole purpose of assisting patients detox off other opiates and opioids. (Bupe is rapidly replacing methadone as the preferred medication for this purpose.) It remains unclear at this point whether bupe can be legally prescribed 'off-label’ for the explicit purpose of treating depression. Since uneducated DEA agents currently have the power to dictate to physicians how to practice medicine (and eagerly persecute those M.D.’s who are too ‘generous’ with their narcotic scripts), the typical doctor is likely to err on the side of caution by prescribing one worthless non-narcotic antidepressant after another, instead of just giving you the opioid medication you really need. If you lack the knowledge that opioids can help you- or simply lack a contact to score opioids illegally, you'll likely suffer a miserable, suicidal existence. Notch up another brilliant success in the government's 'War On Drugs'.

Fortunately, there's a way out. It's even technically legal. Buprenorphine has been proven to be highly effective in treating refractory depression resulting from an endogenous opioid deficiency. In order to prescribe it, an M.D. must first obtain special permission from the prohibition enforcement goons. But once he/she undergoes an 8-hour training course and files the necessary paperwork with the ruling regime, a doctor can prescribe buprenorphine pills to 'treat an opiate addiction problem'... Even if you don't really have one.

For many, an oxycontin dependency isn't a problem they need to overcome, but rather a solution to the nightmare of major refractory depression which plagues them every waking hour. However, buprenorphine is safer, cheaper, and far more easily obtained than other opioids- and it works. Buprenorphine partially binds to your µ- opioid receptor, which could just be all you really need to eliminate those feelings of crippling depression.

In order to find scientific papers and other evidence of the endogenous opioids-depression-opioids connection, you can visit the only web site I know of, which is solely devoted to this cause:

www.opioids.com

Every year, over 30,000 depressed Americans commit suicide. The fate of millions of additional depression patients is far worse - they live. Many tried seeking medical treatment, but were given the same old irrelevant serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor products. No opioids. Buprenorphine could have saved most of them, but ignorance killed them.
_________

Need more proof?

Hundreds of personal testimonials from people who have struggled with depression resulting from an endogenous opioid deficiency can be found here (3) , here (4), and here (5).

All of these depression patients tell a version of the exact same story, which is:

A) I was tormented with clinical depression for years. B) I sought medical help, tried one medication after another (sometimes even ECT), and nothing helped. Suicide became a compelling option. C) Finally, I happened to try opioids, and was amazed to find that oxycodone or buprenorphine is my long awaited solution. This really works, and nothing else even comes close!

______

Need more proof?

While the vital role of the human body's endogenous opioid system is currently tragically under researched, a few relevant scientific papers have indeed been published. While some of this work is less than ideal (such as studies of rodents, instead of human subjects), these referrence materials do help validate the concepts I've explained here:

http://opioids.com/cogmood/antidepressant.html

http://opioids.com/enkephalinase/lhelplessness.html

http://opioids.com/naloxone/depcrf.html

http://opioids.com/enkephalinase/index.html

http://opioids.com/cogmood/index.html

http://opioids.com/codeine/index.html

The best one of all- The Bodkin Experiment:

http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/...&Number=196682

__________________________________________________ ____

(1)http://www.thepainmanagementcenter.c...e/clinical.htm

(2) http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/...&Number=196682

(3) http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=114

(4) http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=18

(5) http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/...&Number=196682
_________

www.ProhibitionKills.blogspot.com
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Unread 04-29-2006, 12:28 AM   #2
glimmertwin
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Rearden -

Great post! I appreciate your time and effort in posting this.

I just started thinking about something while reading this. I know I've been depressed my whole life. I can think back to when I was about 5 and knew I was depressed. I just didn't know how to communicate those feelings back then.

I know that when I began using opiate painkillers in 1997, my whole being just lit up, I felt so happy and serene. You know the feeling.

Well, I know I need an opiate to treat me depression. Because I have tried all the above-mentioned antidepressants, and they did nothing for me, except cause me some discomfort when I stopped taking them.

Do you think it's possible that depression IS CAUSED by opiate deficiancy in EVERY case? Maybe that's why there are so many AD's out there? Because none of them are working for anyone? And maybe most people just don't realize they, too, have this deficiancy? I'm probably way off base here, but I can't help but think that maybe this has been the problem for every depressed person all along? I don't know, I'm just asking.

Sheryl
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Unread 04-29-2006, 01:18 AM   #3
Frozen
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Hi Sheryl,

Well, you can definitely exclude cases of situational depression. If someone is depressed after losing their job, breaking up with their significant other, and their best friend just died...
An opiate deficiency is obviously not likely.

Regarding post-partum depression, if the medical researchers weren't too busy studying their SSRI's ad nauseum, a simple medical experiment could determine whether depressed mothers of newborns experience a sharp drop in their endogenous opioid levels, or not. This assumes there really is a blood test for this purpose.

The Bodkin experiment provides evidence however, that buprenorphine does provide relief to most long suffering, refractory depression patients who have tried everything else to no avail.

This whole subject is so tragically under-researched for now, I don't really think anyone can give you a solid answer to your question. It is possible that those serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibititors do really work for some people (Although their effectiveness is roughly equal to placebo, according to most of the studies.) My feeling is that some depressed people really do have a problem with those three neurotransmitters, which is why all the of the current research is so devoutly fixated in that direction. Still, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if it was discovered that most cases of (non situational) depression is rooted in 'opiate deficiency'.

BTW Sheryl, imagine if many years ago, someone had told you all the things I wrote in the first post of this thread. Knowing all of this information back then would have saved you from years of unspeakable torment, right? That's why I'm so motivated to get this information out there. Because there are people right now, in their own personal hell, who could be made better immediately, if only someone would just tell them to take the right medication, and stop messing around with Zoloft and NA meetings.
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Unread 04-29-2006, 04:21 AM   #4
sassyfras
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Thank-you Rearden for putting all that great information together in one post like that. You can be sure I'll be printing out many copies of that one!
I've known a lot of people who were plagued by severe depression, the kind that makes going to work or even for a walk unthinkable. And out of them all I only know of ONE who responded well to an SSRI. It's a total mystery to me why these meds are still selling. Because you're told that they take 4 to 6 weeks to work, desperate people stay on them for months hoping for greener pastures ahead. Then after months of needless torture they go back to the doctor who either tells them to give it more time or puts them on yet another SSRI. And so it goes. I remember how guilty I felt because these damn meds weren't doing a thing for me. Little did I know back then that it was the same story for so many...

What a travesty. Especially since there's such a simple explanation & cure for most depression. Yeah, that's only my opinion of course, but I'm 99% sure you're right on the money Rearden with your explanation. We can only go by our own experiences but when they match with hundreds, probably thousands of others it's a good indication we're onto something.

Something that could save millions of lives. Keep up the awesome work Rearden,
Cheers,
Maya
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Unread 04-29-2006, 05:31 AM   #5
glimmertwin
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yes, I certainly could have avoided all my misery, had I known what my problem was.

Also, I should have excluded situational depression in regards to low opioid levels, I certainly understand there are sometimes reasons why people are suddenly depressed, such as loss of job, loss of loved one, etc. I really meant to ask about longterm, refractory depression. Because I know so many people who have tried so many antidepressants and received no relief. I am convinced that if suboxone was prescribed to treat depression, so many people would get relief. I know I did.

For me, the most worthless AD I used was Cymbalta. They have this commercial out, about how depression hurts, but you don't have to. They claim Cymbalta not only treats emotional pain, but also the physical pain that can accompany depression. Nah, it didn't help me at all. I have recurring restless legs syndrome, and I also have a pinched nerve in my left shoulder. Both cause quite a bit of pain for me, and I used to take loads of painkillers for it. I have found that suboxone does treat those types of pain, for me, along with killing my desire to use my drug of choice, and - the cherry on top - my depression is in remission. What a relief this is.

Anyway, thanks again for all these links you've provided. I do wish everyone would be on board with us, regarding all the benefits of suboxone. Anyone who needs this medicine can greatly benefit, as long as they use as directed and remain in close communication with a doctor, in order to adjust the dosage if needed. I do not include those who use suboxone just to find a buzz, they should leave the sub for people who want it for the right reason. There's still plenty of hydrocodone for them. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I get worried when I think there may be enough of those people around to give suboxone a bad name - especially to the people in Washington. I want recovery and I need suboxone, pure and simple.

Gotta go, there's some badass weather coming, I live in Dallas/Ft Worth and we are in for a rough night. And that's okay, I love tornadic weather. I should be a storm chaser, what a rush that would be. Just don't want to be on the computer when this stuff hits.

Good night and sweet dreams to everyone reading this.

Love
Sheryl

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Unread 04-29-2006, 11:46 PM   #6
opiatedeficient
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Excellent post, as usual RM. I remember trying to explain to the doctors in my first rehab center that I felt that the opiates treated my depression and anxiety and that perhaps I had an "opiate deficiency" in my brain. This was in 2001 and they didn't want to hear anything about it!

Even as recently as 2004, when I was hospitalized in a psychiatric ward after a suicide attempt, the doctors continued to refuse to accept that I might have any idea what was going on with my own brain chemistry. When I again tried to tell them how opiates had effectively cured my depression when nothing else had, they actually wrote in my chart that I was experiencing delusional thinking and was in "severe denial and was displaying extreme signs of rationalization for her drug use." I specifically asked these doctors to prescribe me Suboxone. They were not qualified to do so, and made no efforts to even look into this medication. Luckily, I had the ability to find a doctor on my own.

Just a few months ago, a family member ran into one of the doctors from that hospital, the doctor who was perhaps the most able to at least listen to me. My family member told the doctor that I was on Suboxone and how well I had been doing, and the doctor said "Wow. She was right. She knew exactly what was going on with her, and exactly what she needed." While this was a victory, what a shame to think about how many other people have gone through that hospital, and the thousands of other hospitals in this nation and continue to NOT receive adequate care.

I do not understand why people continue to deny that opiate deficiency is real, and very treatable. The most disheartening to me is when other people with the disease of addiction pass this off as nonsense, and continue to uphold that "all" any addict needs to do is go to AA or NA and submit to the 12-step process.

My opiate use wreaked havoc on my life, but NOT because of the actual pills themselves. In fact, when I had the pills and was able to take them, I was a happy, stable, functioning person. But because it was not legal for me to have these pills, and because I had to go to illegal lengths to obtain the medications that kept me functioning, THAT is when everything went to hell. I have always maintained that oxycodone was not the enemy in my life, rather it was legal system and the government that not only prevented me from being able to obtain them legally, but then punished me for using my own resources so to speak, to obtain them.

It is wonderful to be able to be treated for a legitimate, life-threatening disease, with respect and appropriate treatment. Finally. I have no doubts whatsoever that my "diagnosis" is not really a substance abuse disorder, but rather an opiate deficiency that went untreated for way too many years and that I paid dearly for.

Thank you, RM, for continuing to bring this issue to the forefront and to continue to educate us all.
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Unread 04-30-2006, 02:36 AM   #7
Frozen
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Thank you all for the encouragement. It's the fuel that keeps me motivated to continue spreading the word.

The text of the opening post in this thread is actually copied word for word from my blog site ( www.ProhibitionKills.blogspot.com )

Note that the page is 100% free from advertising material. I purposely didn't put up any google/ ad-sense banners, as I believe that trying to make money off my site would weaken the message, and put my motives in question. I promise the site will stay that way.

For those of you who strongly identified with my message, could you do a small favor for me, and more importantly for those desperate, improperly medicated depression patients who come to my blog site looking for answers? Could you copy your words of encouragement to the 'comments' section at the bottom of the page? I think that would help add a bit of legitimacy to the entire message. Just click on the words '0 comments', right at the very bottom of the page to add your thoughts. Thanx!

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Unread 05-03-2006, 12:02 PM   #8
LastChance
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Zoloft, Paxil, Cybalta, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Neutontin....been there done that (and probably a few others. For the past 12 Yrs I've suffered through some of the worst depression (at least to me) known to man. Seen multiple Pychiatrists and Phychologists and never heard about Opiate Defficiency Theory.

In fact about 5 years ago I told my Psychologist how only opiates made my depression lift. ( I haven't really been dressed for more than a few weeks in this time.)

He must have thought I was REALLY crazy because he told me to call my Psycologist and tell her this...Which I did! Had I known about some of these studies I would have pushed harder for the Dr. to consider. ( As I recall...The idea was barley discussed ). Something about opiates alterining perceptions temperarily / addictive properties, etc. or some BS like that.

As some of you pointed out there had not been a lot of research done. Although there are some studies out there (i.e. The Bodkin Experiment) the sample size is so small (seven people I belive for The Bodkin Experiment)it hardlly classifies as empirical evidence and I think this is what most MD's would say about the theory.

The fact that Dr.s and the Medical Profession prescribed opiates in the 1800's is more compelling to me.

Regardless, I agree there is enough "success" (used liberally) with opiates that one must consider the Defficeincy theory if trulley being objective.

For all the money I've spent with the Dr's over the years I really wish I had a concise document (hard copy) that I could put in front of each of them and ask them why it was never considered as I suffered through deabilitating Depressions.

It would certainly be worth the price of admission to hear Dr.s reaction and answers!

Maybe one day I'll have the time to assemble/write something like this. Reardon has done a great job of assembling what is available in the form of research which must have taken a considerable amount of time.

-Last
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Unread 05-25-2006, 04:47 PM   #9
Mudder
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So has anyone on this forum ever tried the amino acid therapy where instead of giving you an SSRI like Zoloft, paxil, prozac or lexapro (to name some of the commons SSRI's), they give you amino acid supplements such as 5-HTP and L-trysine plus the cofactors to help make the neurotransmitters? The idea is that where SSRi's fool the brain into thinking you have more serotonin, amino acid therapy gives the body the ingredients to make more serotoin using the 5-HTP precursor. L-Trysine can act as a precursor to noreprinorphine and dopamin I think, and also can help to increase you thyroxine levels.

My wife is trying this right now, but the Subutex tapering sort of ruined the experience because we didn't know what was causing the side effects she was experiencing, namely increase pain, depression and headaches. Now we are holding steady at 4 mg of Subutex and restarting the amino acid therapy to see if that helps.

Here are some links to other website about this therapy. I find the second link from neuroassist to be particulary interesting. Not trying to push this on anyone, just want to know if anyone else has tried it.

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net...nsmitter_Tests
http://www.neuroassist.com/neuroresearch_writings.htm

Cheers,

Mudder
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Unread 05-25-2006, 06:02 PM   #10
Frozen
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Hi Mudder, Yes- I've tried that, and it completely failed to remedy my depression. When one's depression results from an endogenous opioid deficiency, boosting those three neurotransmitters is completely irrelevant, and can't possibly help the patient.

Imagine this: You're having mechanical difficulties with your car, which is unable to drive any faster than 20 MPH due to a broken transmission. You take the car in to a mechanic, explain the problem to him, and he 'fixes' the problem by replacing your tires with new ones. Needless to say, the transmission problem hasn't been resolved at all, so you take your car back to the mechanic. Once again, he completely ignores the root of the problem (transmission), and instead he installs yet another different brand of tires.

You get fed up with the useless 'help' of this mechanic, so you try taking your car to other mechanics in your city- yet every single one of them is blindly fixated on tires. All they know how to do is replace your tires, which of course does not help you at all.

This is exactly how medical orthodoxy currently deals with depression. "The problem MUST originate with a deficiency of serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine (tires), it couldn't possibly be caused by something else, like an endogenous opioid deficiency (transmission). Therefore, all we will do for you, is prescribe one SSRI/SNRI after another (new tires) as we blindly and incorrectly fixate on the same old three neurotransmitters."

Mudder, with all due respect, your post can be compared to the mechanic who comes up with a 'different' idea for fixing the car. Instead of replacing the tires, he patches up the old tires and fills them up with more air.
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Unread 05-25-2006, 06:37 PM   #11
Mudder
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Rearden,

Perhaps you misunderstand, with all respect, I'm NOT trying to advocate this approach as opposed to using Subutex, I'm just asking if anyone has tried it. This whole post that you started has been an education for me, because the detox doctor mentioned several times that some patients self-medicate their depression using opiates, but I hadn't yet found enough information to explain that. It wasn't making complete sense that opiates would affect the serotonin or other neurotransmitters, though I thought maybe it was dopamine. Your post has been most helpful in educating me on what is happening and I agree that three traditional neutrotransmitters may not be the problem, hence, for some people, traditional antidepressants fail miserably.

However, before my wife was ever placed on the fentanyl patch, my wife did respond to one medication called Remeron. This medicine works differently than the traditional SSRI's and multiple reuptake inhibitors like Effexor and Cymbalta because it supposedly stimulates the production of serontin and noreprinephine. Two years ago when my wife was on a total of 60 mg of hydrocodone each day, they stated Remeron and Klonopin worked so well that she was starting to taper off the hydrocodone without the doctors assistance. Then the genius psychaitrist decided that Klonopin was too easy to become dependant on (even though he told my wife and I several times that she was not an addictiver personality), so he introduced Effexor as a way of handling her anxiety disorder. Well, that led to an endless array of depression and unhappiness as he discovered that neither Prozac nor Zoloft worked, nor to the Effexor or Cymbalta worked.

She continued using Remeron up until the time she was detoxxed off the fentanyl patch, at which time they also detoxxed off of the Remeron. This is where the Subutex comes in. After the detox they placed her on Subutex, and after a few weeks she actually was doing great, painwise and moodwise. Howver, we noticed that after she started tapering down on the Subutex, below 8-6 mg she started experiencing increasing depression, which I assumed was a natural consequence of withdrawals and pain.

See, in the past, as soon as the pain got to a certain level, her depression set it. SSRI didn't help, but pain medicine did. I thought it was simply the direct consequence of not being in pain, but now, based on what you wrote at the top of this thread, it may in fact have been that opiates were helping to treat an underlying depression condition due to the endorphins an such. Whether this occurred because the high levels of fentanly they had her taking caused this problem, or it was something already present is a question I can't answer.

So does this mean that general opiates lose their effectiveness on depression because you can develop a tolerance to their effect, thus requiring higher levels? And this is why Subutex may be a more effective alternative since you don't develop a tolerance because of its partial agonist method of working?

Thanks,

Dan
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Unread 05-25-2006, 09:44 PM   #12
Frozen
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Hi Mudder, I didn't misunderstand you. I just didn't make it clear enough that I do realize you're capable of thinking outside the neurotransmitter box. My bad. I'm glad my writings have been helpful to you.

Here's the thing: If your wife's depression problems were nonexistent before she began using opioids, there's a strong chance this depression is being caused by the changes those opioids have made to her brain. Habitual opiate use causes the brain to grow more opioid receptors, which demand to be 'fed'. These cerebral changes cause dependency and tolerence. If she was suffering significant depression before her opioid use began, an innate endogenous opioid deficiency would seem more likely. (As is the case with SassyFras. Her posts should be of interest to you, as her situation sounds very similar to that of your wife.)

So does this mean that general opiates lose their effectiveness on depression because you can develop a tolerance to their effect, thus requiring higher levels? And this is why Subutex may be a more effective alternative since you don't develop a tolerance because of its partial agonist method of working?

I'm pretty sure that the above statement is correct, and subutex is unique in that it does not cause the brain to grow more receptors over time. Otherwise, sub patients would have to constantly increase their dosage- which is generally not the case at all.

Best Regards,

~RM

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mudder

Rearden,

Perhaps you misunderstand, with all respect, I'm NOT trying to advocate this approach as opposed to using Subutex, I'm just asking if anyone has tried it. This whole post that you started has been an education for me, because the detox doctor mentioned several times that some patients self-medicate their depression using opiates, but I hadn't yet found enough information to explain that. It wasn't making complete sense that opiates would affect the serotonin or other neurotransmitters, though I thought maybe it was dopamine. Your post has been most helpful in educating me on what is happening and I agree that three traditional neutrotransmitters may not be the problem, hence, for some people, traditional antidepressants fail miserably.

However, before my wife was ever placed on the fentanyl patch, my wife did respond to one medication called Remeron. This medicine works differently than the traditional SSRI's and multiple reuptake inhibitors like Effexor and Cymbalta because it supposedly stimulates the production of serontin and noreprinephine. Two years ago when my wife was on a total of 60 mg of hydrocodone each day, they stated Remeron and Klonopin worked so well that she was starting to taper off the hydrocodone without the doctors assistance. Then the genius psychaitrist decided that Klonopin was too easy to become dependant on (even though he told my wife and I several times that she was not an addictiver personality), so he introduced Effexor as a way of handling her anxiety disorder. Well, that led to an endless array of depression and unhappiness as he discovered that neither Prozac nor Zoloft worked, nor to the Effexor or Cymbalta worked.

She continued using Remeron up until the time she was detoxxed off the fentanyl patch, at which time they also detoxxed off of the Remeron. This is where the Subutex comes in. After the detox they placed her on Subutex, and after a few weeks she actually was doing great, painwise and moodwise. Howver, we noticed that after she started tapering down on the Subutex, below 8-6 mg she started experiencing increasing depression, which I assumed was a natural consequence of withdrawals and pain.

See, in the past, as soon as the pain got to a certain level, her depression set it. SSRI didn't help, but pain medicine did. I thought it was simply the direct consequence of not being in pain, but now, based on what you wrote at the top of this thread, it may in fact have been that opiates were helping to treat an underlying depression condition due to the endorphins an such. Whether this occurred because the high levels of fentanly they had her taking caused this problem, or it was something already present is a question I can't answer.

So does this mean that general opiates lose their effectiveness on depression because you can develop a tolerance to their effect, thus requiring higher levels? And this is why Subutex may be a more effective alternative since you don't develop a tolerance because of its partial agonist method of working?

Thanks,

Dan
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Unread 05-25-2006, 10:03 PM   #13
Mudder
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Thanks Rearden,

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Dan
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Unread 07-30-2006, 01:14 AM   #14
easc
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This is a real eye opener!Thanks also for the thought and hard work you have put into this work RM.I appreciate the fact that you made a reference to acupunture as I have found it to be especially helpful for a variety of ailments including depression.Does it work for you?I'll be sure to add to the comment section on your blog.

EASC
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Unread 08-01-2006, 02:31 AM   #15
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by easc

This is a real eye opener!Thanks also for the thought and hard work you have put into this work RM.I appreciate the fact that you made a reference to acupunture as I have found it to be especially helpful for a variety of ailments including depression.Does it work for you?I'll be sure to add to the comment section on your blog.

EASC
Thanx a million!
Two years ago, I was dying. I had never heard of bupe, but I knew that strong opioids like oxy could save me. I knew nothing about all the scientific evidence backing up my theory, and I couldn't score a milligram of oxy to save my life (literally!)

After trying 23 different (non-opioid) medications and supplements and seeking treatment from more doctors than I can count on my fingers, I was still dying. For my family's sake, I agreed to try a few more 'Hail Mary passes' before ending it. Acupuncture was one of those desperate shots in the dark, and it was acupuncture that finally broke the dark crushing cloud hanging over my life.
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Unread 08-01-2006, 03:01 AM   #16
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RM, I am interested to know more about the acupuncture. I don't really know anything about it, but don't they treat different areas of the body depending on the ailment? Where on your body are you treated?
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Unread 08-01-2006, 01:11 PM   #17
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RM..Thanks so much for this post. I know definitively that opiates controlled (for lack of a better word) my depression. They made me feel "normal", involved, and part of life again. I never really felt "high" from percocett, I felt "normal" and began hating people that could just get up and live life without taking a pill. I too had been on every anti-depressant known to man all to no avail and most with horrible side effects as I desperatly searched for something that would make me normal. I ended up on percocett due to severe back problems and knew from the first time I took "one" pill that I was mentally different. Eventually it became more important to me to take it for my mental well being rather than my pain. I truly believe if there was no tolerence to them two a day would have kept me normal forever. I am taking a quarter pill a day and recently skipped my dose on sunday. I realize now that I spent sunday on the couch thinking I was just having a lazy day, never connecting it to the bup. After waking up monday morning in severe back pain, I took my quarter pill and more importantly than my pain being almost gone was my mental attitude. I never hit the couch once on monday. I cleaned, worked in my garden cooked dinner and felt so good all day. The amazing thing to me about bup is that in my experimentation with finding the right dose for me I have found that if I take more than I need, even half a pill instead of a quarter, that I feel completely different. I would not call it depressed, just not good. I compare it to the days when I took too many percocett and felt lethargic and just uninvolved, wanting to lay around and not interact with people. Will there ever be a time when our medical "guru's" realize the anti-depressant effect that bup contains. Soooo many people suffering needlessly...Thank you again for your valuable contribution here, I am constantly learning...and even more importantly, constantly thinking and realizing more and more just what makes me ..."ME". (sorry if I seem to ramble but I have always been someone who has to explain every little thing, I am learning from all of you how to make A "point" in a sentence rather than a paragraph..LOL) A Grateful member...Pattiann
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Unread 08-01-2006, 01:48 PM   #18
Jaywalker
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Good Morning Friends:

I wanted to check in regarding accupuncture. For the last couple of months I have been getting weekly accupuncture treatments. Initially, I was very skeptical about the efficacy of accupuncture; however, I have become a proponant.

My reason for trying accupuncture was for the residual chronic pain I still have on a daily basis. I'm now very glad that I did -- It does help. I find it to have more of a cumulative effect; over time I have noted a bit less of that nagging, deep down aching in my back and legs. (I almost didn't go back after the first appointment, as I actually initially felt a little worse after that first round of "puncturing").

I can't speak for any help it may offer in the treatment of depression, but it certainly wouldn't hurt (no pun intended -- the treatment really isn't uncomfortable) to try it, especially since traditional treatments (i.e., SSRI's) do not work for everyone, and even in cases where they do have some success initially, most people report that these medications seem to have less effect over time.

Be well my friends....

Jay
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Unread 08-03-2006, 01:58 AM   #19
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by josie

RM, I am interested to know more about the acupuncture. I don't really know anything about it, but don't they treat different areas of the body depending on the ailment? Where on your body are you treated?
Everywhere, head to toe. The acupuncturist used about 20 to 30 needles on me, but it doesn't hurt at all.
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Unread 09-13-2006, 01:45 AM   #20
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Copied below is a recent update I've made to my site.
I really should also create the world's first FAQ on opioids for depression- I'll get around to it eventually...
________________________________________


If you're dying of depression, you need emergency instructions to follow, and you need them NOW. Understanding the how and why behind these methods can wait for another day.

Practical instructions for the dying:
  • If the neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors (Paxil, Welbutrin, Celexa,Zoloft, Prozac, etc.) haven't already worked for you, they never will. Your problem lies not in serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine, but the endogenous opioids.
  • If you've tried opiates, and already know they can make you feel 'normal', that is your confirmation that listening to me is a good idea. If you've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high' which other people talk about... that's another clue. Another common indicator of endorphin deficiency: Your immune system is weak. You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition, especially CFS/ME(1).
  • ECT can only 'reboot' your brain, without ever touching the underlying condition. Unless you find a way to compensate for your insufficient endogenous opioid levels, any perceived 'benefits' of the ECT would be very short lived. The doctors are suggesting ECT ; Not because it works, but only because they are desperate, and have absolutely nothing else. If they knew anything about endorphin deficiency syndrome, ECT would have never been presented to you as an option in the first place.
  • You can break your current 'wave' of suicidal depression by getting acupuncture. If the acupuncturist studied in China, he/she already knows that endorphin deficiency syndrome is REAL, and can be temporarily alleviated via the acupuncture needles.
  • Right after the acupuncture session, you'll feel just as lousy as you did before it- possibly even assuming the technique has failed. However, the next morning your depression will have miraculously lifted. See, acupuncture stimulates your brain to increase endorphin production (2), and this can only occur during a full night's sleep.
  • While Buprenorphine is by far the best option, other opiates and opioids can also repel the dark depressive cloud hanging over your life. Hydrocodone (vicodin, lortab, norco, etc), oxycodone (percocet,percodan,roxicet,tylox, etc.), propoxyphene (darvocet), and tramadol (ultram,ultracet) should all be carefully regarded as a potential temporary solution at best. Unless your depression is already deathly severe, starting a pill habit now will likely cause you more harm than good. Also, be sure to first understand the risks of acetaminophen poisoning (3) before going this route.
  • I know the depression is paralyzing you into inaction- I've been there too. Still, you should know you can't continue on this path indefinitely. You have no choice but to either kill yourself or get better. There's no third option, so you need to muster up your last ounce of strength and make your move- NOW!

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome
(2) http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s27924.htm
(3) http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic819.htm

www.Prohibition-Kills.com
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Unread 10-29-2006, 02:51 AM   #21
kaye
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Great post! Definately not 'right wing' thinking......thank
goodness~~ kaye
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Unread 12-09-2006, 01:50 AM   #22
leeglegle
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Rearden_Metal

Copied below is a recent update I've made to my site.
I really should also create the world's first FAQ on opioids for depression- I'll get around to it eventually...
________________________________________


If you're dying of depression, you need emergency instructions to follow, and you need them NOW. Understanding the how and why behind these methods can wait for another day.

Practical instructions for the dying:
  • If the neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors (Paxil, Welbutrin, Celexa,Zoloft, Prozac, etc.) haven't already worked for you, they never will. Your problem lies not in serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine, but the endogenous opioids.
  • If you've tried opiates, and already know they can make you feel 'normal', that is your confirmation that listening to me is a good idea. If you've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high' which other people talk about... that's another clue. Another common indicator of endorphin deficiency: Your immune system is weak. You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition, especially CFS/ME(1).
  • ECT can only 'reboot' your brain, without ever touching the underlying condition. Unless you find a way to compensate for your insufficient endogenous opioid levels, any perceived 'benefits' of the ECT would be very short lived. The doctors are suggesting ECT ; Not because it works, but only because they are desperate, and have absolutely nothing else. If they knew anything about endorphin deficiency syndrome, ECT would have never been presented to you as an option in the first place.
  • You can break your current 'wave' of suicidal depression by getting acupuncture. If the acupuncturist studied in China, he/she already knows that endorphin deficiency syndrome is REAL, and can be temporarily alleviated via the acupuncture needles.
  • Right after the acupuncture session, you'll feel just as lousy as you did before it- possibly even assuming the technique has failed. However, the next morning your depression will have miraculously lifted. See, acupuncture stimulates your brain to increase endorphin production (2), and this can only occur during a full night's sleep.
  • While Buprenorphine is by far the best option, other opiates and opioids can also repel the dark depressive cloud hanging over your life. Hydrocodone (vicodin, lortab, norco, etc), oxycodone (percocet,percodan,roxicet,tylox, etc.), propoxyphene (darvocet), and tramadol (ultram,ultracet) should all be carefully regarded as a potential temporary solution at best. Unless your depression is already deathly severe, starting a pill habit now will likely cause you more harm than good. Also, be sure to first understand the risks of acetaminophen poisoning (3) before going this route.
  • I know the depression is paralyzing you into inaction- I've been there too. Still, you should know you can't continue on this path indefinitely. You have no choice but to either kill yourself or get better. There's no third option, so you need to muster up your last ounce of strength and make your move- NOW!

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome
(2) http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s27924.htm
(3) http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic819.htm

www.Prohibition-Kills.com
Somehow I stumbled on this post while researching the 30 patient limit earlier this evening.

I strongly urge that anyone on this site who is seeking an answer to why they can't shed their depression, no matter what conventional medications are prescribed by their physicians, read the above.

There are answers for many people who've lost all hope.

There are explanations why you've migrated to this site due to your drug of choice: opiates/opiods,etc.

Buprenorphine/suboxone/subutex may be your life-saving miracle as it was for me.

Check out this entire thread. The "Prohibition Kills" link references others that are startling in their clarity of explanation and expression.

Lastly, I also refer you to my Topic: "Buprenorphine and Depression." There, you'll find yourself and perhaps the answers you so desperately need.

Robert (leeglegle)
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Unread 12-09-2006, 04:20 AM   #23
Frozen
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by kaye

Great post! Definately not 'right wing' thinking......thank
goodness~~ kaye
This may surprise you, but it sure as hell isn't 'left wing' thinking either! There are many terms for what I am, and I'm sure you're familiar with many of them:

Libertarian, Individualist, Objectivist, Secularist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Austrian School of Economics, 'Randist', etc...

Whether you know it or not, you might be one too. Take the 'world's smallest political quiz': http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

__________________________________________________ __

"A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded. Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes."
~Abraham Lincoln

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."
~Ayn Rand

If you destroy a free market, you create a black market.
~Winston Churchill

"Democracy is good. Freedom is better."
~(Unknown Libertarian)
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:09 AM   #24
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Frozen, aka Rearden Metal, I copy all your posts and take to my Alanon Groups...so,mister,you had better be sure you're right, I'm believing everything you say.....and passing it on. I would like to know more about your time in the Israeli Army. Your experiences. I have friends there, right now, and get weekly reports as well as copies of the Jerusalem Post. Yes, the 'Unknown Libertarian' was right, Democracy is good. Freedom is better. I appreciate the wisdom you bring to this site that I believe sets it apart from other chatrooms. Intelligent conversations about ideas are rarities. By the way, I'm pretty mad at Riverbend, right now. Read her latest and see what you think. Upps, this is off topic,sorry!
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:03 PM   #25
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Hi Diana,

Thanx for all your encouragement! Within a decade or two, I'm sure medical orthodoxy will finally catch up with what I've been saying here, and drop their silly neurotransmitter fixation for once and for all.

Riverbend's latest doesn't surprise me at all. She's been consistently becoming increasingly radical. I don't know what to say about that- Iraq is the one problem even I can't begin to solve.

As for my IDF experiences, I've actually already written a few stories to a different board. I was an immature, naive 18 year old who was forced into the completely inappropriate (for me) job of guarding enemy prisoners in a massive desert prison camp on the Egyptian border. So these aren't happy, lighthearted fun little stories if you know what I mean, but here you are (Warning- very explicit, gritty stuff):


http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showth...iot#post673839

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showth...iot#post673443

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showth...iot#post852167

(Two stories at that last link- My second story is four posts down from the first)

If you still want more, one of my old army buddies, Jeffrey Goldberg, has since become a pretty renowned journalist, writing an entire book about our base:

Prisoners-Muslim-Across-Middle-Divide---book

That horrible place cracked both of us, along with many others who served there. (The book just came out- I haven't read it yet.)


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Unread 01-06-2007, 10:29 PM   #26
leeglegle
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Well, RM/Frozen...............

You DO have quite a story. And I'm the one writing a book?

BTW, I follow Goldberg's writing with keen interest. And, now, yours.

But, perhaps this part of the NAABT board is not the place to more fully express my thoughts. I'll write you privately.

Happy new year and all the best.

Robert
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Unread 01-07-2007, 01:06 AM   #27
diana
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Well, well, Frozen, you do have quite a story. How in the world did you get from the desert (in one piece) to Il. U.S.A.? Do your parents still live in Israel? I'll follow Robert's cue and continue to read your posts without commenting on this site...look forward to reading your friend's book. Must have been really bad....the good thing, it motivated you to get rich!! Wish I knew how to do that,but wouldn't want to go through what you indured to get there, however!! You're one smart guy, I'm sure that's how you became so successful. Keep educating us. (Oh yeah, I'm also pretty mad that the trees I asked to be planted in Israel were recently blownup!) Okay, ENOUGH from me.
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Unread 01-19-2007, 10:11 PM   #28
Frozen
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A fantastic new article has just come out, that not only agrees with everything I've been saying all along about endorphin deficiency syndrome, but has also taught me about something new- Something we all needed to know:
A nutritional supplement that destroys the enzyme that causes endorphins to self-destruct, and so extends their life.
It's called D-Phenylalanine (DLPA, NOT L-Phenylalanine which doesn't help endorphin levels). Needless to say, I've already ordered some DLPA off the net.

The article even agrees with a theory I've held for years, that different individuals gravitate to different types of drugs according to their personal chemical deficiencies.

http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2007/CARA0107.htm

_________________
An excerpt:

Since Austrian Otto Loewi discovered the first neurotransmitter, now called acetylcholine, in 1921, over 300 others have been discovered. Luckily for those of us in the addiction field, we're mostly concerned with just four. Let's start with the catecholamines: dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. The catecholamines are what wake you up, focus your brain, and put color into your day. Without enough catecholamines, life is grey, boring, and disorganized. Anyone with diagnosed with ADD/ADHD needs more catecholamines. You only have to notice how many coffee shops are on your city's streets to realize we are a catecholamine-deficient people. You may also notice that methamphetamine abuse is reaching epic proportions. Some 500 counties questioned in 2005 named methamphetamine abuse as their largest drug problem and methamphetamine, the one drug causing the most incarcerations (Angelo D. Kyle, NA Co-President and Bill Hansell, NACo President-Elect. The Meth Epidemic in America, Two Surveys of US Counties. July 5, 2005).

The second important amino acid for addiction treatment is tryptophan, a metabolic precursor for the neurotransmitter serotonin. In the 1980s, tryptophan was inexpensive and easily available in every health food store. Psychiatrists used tryptophan to increase levels of serotonin in cases of insomnia and depression. The amino acid's reputation was sullied in 1989 when a single polluted batch of tryptophan from Showa Denka, one of several Japanese suppliers, caused eosinophilia myalgia syndrome which killed eleven Americans and sickened many more. Showa Denka stopped producing tryptophan. Other suppliers continued to ship safe tryptophan to American hospitals, American baby food manufacturers, and foreign buyers, but the supply of tryptophan on health food shelves quickly dried up. Recently tryptophan has appeared again for over-the-counter purchase.

Meanwhile, another metabolic precursor of serotonin was discovered in an African bean called Griffonia simplicifolia. This precursor, 5-hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP, is an intermediary between tryptophan and serotonin and can cross the blood-brain barrier to increase levels of serotonin in the central nervous system. According to a handy amino acid therapy chart designed by Julia Ross and described in her book The Mood Cure (see Resources), symptoms of serotonin deficiency include anxiety, irritability, premenstrual syndrome, panic attacks, suicidal thoughts, a dislike of hot weather, difficulty getting to sleep and difficulty staying asleep, low self-esteem, obsessive-compulsive thoughts and behaviors, and the kind of depression that perceives all life's woes as one's own fault.

The third important amino acid for addiction treatment is phenylalanine. Phenylalanine is used to maintain levels of endorphins, those powerful pain relievers and mood elevators that create an effect characterized as the "runner's high." The most common symptoms of endorphin deficiency are hyper-sensitivity, low threshold for pain, a tendency to become easily hooked into sentimental TV commercials, a tendency to cry easily, chronic pain, and depression. Unlike tyrosine and 5HTP, phenylalanine doesn't make more of a neurotransmitter. It destroys the enzyme that causes endorphins to self-destruct and so extends their life. To build more endorphins, a person must consume adequate protein in meals.

As with all amino acids, phenylalanine is a three-dimensional molecule and has a natural twist to it. With amino acids, L- indicates a left twist (the Latin is laevus), and D- indicates right (the Latin is dexter). It's the D- form that maintains endorphins, but for manufacturers, it's cheaper to mix the two. Some of the L- form converts to L-tyrosine. The D-form is patented and is quite useful for relieving pain while avoiding the stimulation of the L-form.


The fourth amino acid useful for addiction treatment is gamma aminobutyric acid (GABA), which is also the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the body. Anxiety and muscle tension are signs of deficient GABA, as are cravings for tranquilizing drugs, marijuana, and alcohol.


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Unread 01-19-2007, 10:38 PM   #29
Frozen
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...which brings me to something else I've been meaning to discuss here for a while, identifying the hallmark traits of Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome. Since the 'real' scientists aren't doing much to advance knowledge of this syndrome, I'd like to ask for the help of anyone here who identifies themselves as 'opiate deficient' (and I mean those of you who have been 'opiate deficient' since birth, NOT as the result of an addiction.), letting me know which of the following traits apply to you, and which ones do not.

The two traits that seem to nearly always appear in individuals with endorphin deficiency depression, are:

A) Weak immune system. You don't know of anyone who catches nasty colds as often as you do. Perhaps you were even diagnosed with an autoimmune condition or two.

B) You've never in your life experienced the so-called 'runner's high'.

Here are some other traits which I've also encountered repeatedly. Please tell me if these apply to you or not:

C) Hypersensitivity/Tactile defensiveness. This could be hypersensitivity to touch, light, temperature, etc. You're easily made uncomfortable by slight disturbances in your surroundings.

D) You're introverted, and annoyed by crowds. This may have something to do with trait C, above.

E) Pollen allergy/Hay fever- This often comes with a chronic runny nose, and possibly other allergies as well.

F) You're easy to bring to tears, or at least you were that way through your teenage years.


Some other, less likely traits. These may or may not apply to you, but please let me know either way!

G) You have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder. These are Narcissistic personality disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, Borderline personality disorder, and Antisocial personality disorder.

H) Your motor coordination skills developed slowly as a child. Your training wheels stayed on your bike for longer than normal. You were also lousy at sports.

Notice I didn't include insomnia, despite the fact that most of us have it. Reason being, 89% of people who have attempted suicide report suffering sleep disorders, hence this is something that goes with depression of all kinds, and not just the endorphin deficiency variety.

I'm just trying to put this puzzle together as best I can, so any input would be greatly appreciated!
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Unread 01-22-2007, 10:00 PM   #30
Frozen
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Ok, slow down! Don't all respond to my survey at once...
For now it's Opiophile 4, NAABT 0: [:0]

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthrea...0651#post80651
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Unread 01-23-2007, 02:00 AM   #31
Mkaeding
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Let's score one for the NAABT site - hopefully more to come, maybe everyone hasn't received the memo yet I'll list the ones that apply.

A) Normally catch two major colds per year, including high fevers and takes roughly a week or longer to recover.

B) Have never experienced runners high, or ever gotten any endorphin rush from doing weight lifting or any excercise. I feel burned out completely after these activities - hard to even keep my eyes open after prolonged physical exertion.

C) I do have hypersensitivity to bright lights, sharp sounds esspecially in an enclosed area when peolple are talking loudly. I choose my surroundings carefully to avoid the assault on my senses. I am also sensitive to heated environments which can make me flushed, clammy and sickly.

D) Yes to this as well, perhaps as you mentioned because of the above. I am typically more suited to these situations while on a steady dose of hydro. Definitely irritated with crowds, too much assault. I spend most of my time in solitude.

E) I've had severe allergies since I was a kid. Would literally go through 5-6 hankies in a day, they'd be saturated because my nose was a literal snot faucet. Pollen and temperature fluctuations are the worst though Zyrtec seems to be somwhat effective and the allergies haven't been as prominent in more recent years.

G) I have antisocial behavior and it becomes a little more manageable when I'm taking hydro. Sometimes the hydro enables me to overcome this behavior, but without it, no chance.

Hope this helps Frozen - good luck!

Matt
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Unread 01-23-2007, 07:07 AM   #32
glimmertwin
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Hi Frozen -

Your post is very interesting. All of this stuff applies to me. After I started on sub, it didn't take long for me to get the idea that maybe all I needed my whole life was this bit of opiate in my brain, instead of a whole freakin bottle of vicodin all at once, to make me feel like a whole person.

I have always wondered what it is that makes me feel like I have the flu all the time. And why I'm tired all the time. And why do I cry so easily? And I've been a "stressed" or "nervous" person all my life.

And then came suboxone/subutex. It changed everything. I don't need hydrocodone anymore! I don't have that horrible restless legs thing anymore. I can sleep again (sometimes), because yes, I do suffer from insomnia and a great big opiate high followed by a nice period of The Nods offered great comfort. But now I don't have to get The Nods. I can just go to bed.

I remember telling my mother, back when I was 7 or 8 years old, that something just wasn't right about me. I felt too sad, I didn't know why, all I knew was I didn't want to live like that forever.

Now I sometimes find myself worrying about buprinorphine, like, what if we have a shortage? But for now I won't worry about it. It is kind of nice to sit back and slowly "melt one", and just know that once I'm finished with it, I am free from any withdrawal symptoms, my depression will still be almost completely in remission.

Frozen, this is so much to think about. But what are doctors saying about this? Do we have any doctors on our side, who believe us when we say that we have been opiate deficient all along?

Sheryl



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Unread 02-17-2007, 09:02 PM   #33
ironman
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I was a fan of Ozzie and Co. back in '70 at 15 yrs. old.. Heard this song and felt a bond. Everyone else I knew HATED these guys ! All these years later I understand what my attraction was:

"Paranoid" by Black Sabbath

"Finished with my woman 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind
people think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time

All day long I think of things but nothing seems to satisfy
Think I'll lose my mind if I don't find something to pacify

Can you help me with my brain?
Oh yeah

I need someone to show me the things in life that I can't find

I can't see the things that make true happiness, I must be blind

Make a joke and I will sigh and you will laugh and I will cry
Happiness I cannot feel and love to me is so unreal

And so as you hear these words telling you now of my state
I tell you to enjoy life I wish I could but it's too late."

Why named "Paranoid" I don't know - hey, what do you want from a bunch of teenage drop outs ? Still, I did relate. Sabbath was my savior (with a large quanity of opiates).
Probably wouldn't have made it past 18 without them plaing on my turntable/headphones. It alawys amazed me when I would go to the "Houses of the Holy" - the Nassau Coliseum etc.,to see them "play" that I was packed in, shoulder to shoulder, with thousands of other kids from towns all over the greater NYC area - yet no one I personally knew liked them. How many of these kids were also suffering and realted to the lyrics as I did ? I think he and his families "reality show" has made him more popular than he was back then ("The Osbornes") and he is clearly as much a mess as I ever was.
*As I type this a TV commercial just came on about the "Mental Health Foundation" (.net) and depression...


Sorry - read the thread from the bottom up - didn't note this was a survey thread.

Loved the heat as a kid - the hotter the summer day the better. Hate it now - note: some thyroid issues in family - I have elevated T3 but not enough for a Dx - yet.

Sports - I dreaded gym class and Little League - never fit in - could not focus enough to follow the ball in play etc.
Got a medical exemption from my family Doc at 15 (9th grade) and never attended gym class again.** BUT, I played in a long haired R&R band - jocks were not "cool" (and they despised me right back) so I can't say one way or the other on this one - situational ?

Developed "SAD" sometime in my mid - late 30's. Loved the Fall as a kid - dread the change in light that comes late August - run for the Vics !

Can take music playing at concert level AS LONG AS I'M THE ONE listening. Anyone else turns on the radio/stereo while I'm working at something else runs the risk of assault/battery ! Also, many like music while making love. Turn on the music when I'm your partner and its over with. It always detracts and takes my full attention (I'm also a
former R&R musician - go figure !).

Never had an allergy to anything - lots of colds when I used to smoke cigs. and drank booze. Must say that went away with discontinuation of same.

I'm sure I would have had a Dx of Antisocial - even though I think I'm OK and justified ! At least I can admit I'm f***ed
up ! I do question "Authority" at work and I'm a mid level Super. Not a well LIKED mid level Super. though.

No "runners high" *see no sports above.

Can not take over head lighting - always turn off and switch on lamp when I enter any room ! Will request same when visiting ...

I helped bury quite a lot of my friends in the late 60's early 70's due to drugs & booze related car wrecks. No doubt reeked havoc on my psyche. And I mean a lot - 20 + including friends that were like brothers to me. So I may be an aberration here. I temp. lost the ability to speak on the occasion on one of those deaths - I was 18. In those days there were no "grief counselors". You just sucked it up and knocked it back with your DOC. Methadone & Valium was a particularly deadly mix that was handed out by Docs in those days. I can think of 5 right off the top of my head. Also mother was Dx'd psychotic. Geez, wonder I made it !
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Unread 05-16-2007, 12:14 AM   #34
Frozen
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I've recently added a long overdue word of warning to my site:

A Final Warning:

I am able to explain the phenomenon of EDS, far better than I can solve it.
Keep in mind that the science in this area is still in it's infancy. The terms 'endogenous opioid' & 'endorphin' didn't even exist until 1975. Before the mid-70's, there wasn't a scientist in the world who knew that the human brain contained natural, opiate like chemicals. Any opioid you can ingest is still only an approximate substitute and a crude replacement for what the EDS brain is lacking. Your brain's natural endorphins never cause tolerance build-up problems, which is unfortunately not the case with any opioid you can ingest. Ideally, an endogenous opioid deficient brain could be treated by putting exactly what is lacking, exactly where it belongs... but science hasn't yet figured out how to do that.

Let’s say you could rate clinical depression on a scale from one to ten; One being mild, barely noticeable discomfort, and ten being the worst depression imaginable: Just shoot me now’ internal torment, complete with constant crying and panic attacks. OK, so here’s the problem: Let’s say you start off with mid-range depression, 5 to 6 on the above scale, and no opiate habit. You start using one or two hydrocodone pills per day and all symptoms of depression immediately disappear for a while. Pretty common scenario thus far. Now, as your opiate tolerance builds, a few months later you find that your depression is slowly returning. At that point you’re forced to either up your dose or face clinical depression symptoms that are even worse than they were before you started using hydrocodone- perhaps even an 8 or 9 on the above mentioned depression scale. If you try quitting all opioids cold turkey after using them for a while, you’ll almost certainly find your depression has become worse than it ever was.
(Fortunately, this problem is rarely irreversible. People quitting an opioid/opiate habit tend to go through about 6-12 months of - Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, after which the brain usually reverts to its previous pre-addiction state). Getting on the opiate train is easy- Getting off can be torturous.

Some EDS sufferers find buprenorphine to be their perfect solution for years and years, but some find that after a while the bupe no longer works anywhere near as well as it did at first.
One or two little vicodin pills a day may be enough to completely banish your depression for a while, but I can almost guarantee you that within a year you’ll have no choice but to either step up your opioid use, or suffer from depression far worse than it was before you started. Buprenorphine on the other hand, carries the significant advantage of little to no tolerance build-up over time. I had to mention this, because you need to be fully informed of all the risks involved with attempting to ingest opioids to compensate for an endogenous opioid deficiency, before you can make your own decision.
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Unread 05-18-2007, 12:46 AM   #35
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Frozen
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
best, skum
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Unread 07-26-2007, 05:18 AM   #36
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Thanks for taking the time to post some useful information.
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Unread 08-09-2007, 09:31 PM   #37
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I'm on my 3rd day of bupe....some getting used to. Tweaking the dosage and time, etc. Little daunted over the possibility that it might lose some or all of it's efficacy over time.

Is there any data like there is for the SSRI's re: the SSRI merry-go-round? Or still too early in the game.

I range in the 40-50% scale on within the realm of tolerances and predilections. Really resonated with the above lighting vs. table lamp deal. Just putting the overhead light for a second ( to, of course, locate the switch to the table lamp ).

Excellent, useful and balanced thread, here.

shadowfakx
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Unread 08-09-2007, 11:31 PM   #38
flowers
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Very interesting info here, Frozen. I grew up in a normal average family, yet I've felt depressed my whole life. Also remember being BORED a lot. I always needed mental stimulation, couldn't care less about sports. Also a total loner, I wonder if anyone can relate to this... The minute I took opiates (demerol after surgery) I felt whole and complete. Totally at peace, it was love at first sight.

I also have went through a gamut of anti-depressants, I'm currently on Prozac. I was prepared to take it (the Prozac) for the rest of my life if it worked, I am going to talk it over with my bupe doctor and see what he thinks of this.

Thanks for taking the time to post all this info!! Sandra A.
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Unread 08-18-2007, 03:03 AM   #39
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sandra

Very interesting info here, Frozen. I grew up in a normal average family, yet I've felt depressed my whole life. Also remember being BORED a lot. I always needed mental stimulation, couldn't care less about sports. Also a total loner, I wonder if anyone can relate to this... The minute I took opiates (demerol after surgery) I felt whole and complete. Totally at peace, it was love at first sight.

I also have went through a gamut of anti-depressants, I'm currently on Prozac. I was prepared to take it (the Prozac) for the rest of my life if it worked, I am going to talk it over with my bupe doctor and see what he thinks of this.

Thanks for taking the time to post all this info!! Sandra A.
You're welcome! Your current doctor might not understand anything about endorphin deficiency depression, but I think you may know someone else who does: Your former doc- You know, the one you're suing on the grounds that he was just a few years ahead of his time, risking his own ass to give you exactly what you needed to neutralize your depression- At least until society's misguided stigmas and unjust laws forced him to cease treatment.

Look Sandra, I can't blame you for seeing his actions through the lens of our current society, which would make his actions look a lot like medical malpractice. But you already know that an uncommon subtype of depression really does exist- An agonizing inner torment that can only be controlled with opiate medication. Knowing that, did your old doc really do anything wrong? Please think about it, ok?
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Unread 12-07-2007, 08:37 PM   #40
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Hi Frozen
I'm new to this site and I am so greatful to have found it!And I must say that I am especially intrigued/appreciative of the posts made by yourself as well as Mr. leeglegle.Reason being is I too believe there is some connection between long term/refractory depression and EDS/opiate deficiency.I too have been down the road of trying all the AD's with no results at all.And then along came Vicodin!!My first exp. with the vic's came when I was 18 and had them prescribed for shingles and also for a terrible infection in my mouth and throat.These were a few of the things that were a result of having a suppresed immune system. (I had hodgkins disease when I was 18).Hodgkins disease is a type of cancer of the lymphatic system.And from what I know the lymphatic system in your body is the biggest part of the bodys immune system.So my answer to your survey would be somewhere along these lines...
a)Immune system.....need I say more?less of a problem now though but I understant that methadone (my current DOC)actually enhances the immune system.
b)Runners high...what's that?jk nope,never.
c)hypersensitivity...I would say yes,somewhat but probably more so when combined with...
d)my discomfort in being in crowds, parties etc...also alleviated when I take opiates.Without opiates in my system I was always very shy and introverted.
e)I have'nt had any problems with allergies.
f)yes
g)never a problem with opiates in my system however without, I would say yes.Thats all for now.Thank you for all of your hard work/research on this topic. Robert G.
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Unread 12-07-2007, 10:00 PM   #41
flowers
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Frozen

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sandra

Very interesting info here, Frozen. I grew up in a normal average family, yet I've felt depressed my whole life. Also remember being BORED a lot. I always needed mental stimulation, couldn't care less about sports. Also a total loner, I wonder if anyone can relate to this... The minute I took opiates (demerol after surgery) I felt whole and complete. Totally at peace, it was love at first sight.

I also have went through a gamut of anti-depressants, I'm currently on Prozac. I was prepared to take it (the Prozac) for the rest of my life if it worked, I am going to talk it over with my bupe doctor and see what he thinks of this.

Thanks for taking the time to post all this info!! Sandra A.
You're welcome! Your current doctor might not understand anything about endorphin deficiency depression, but I think you may know someone else who does: Your former doc- You know, the one you're suing on the grounds that he was just a few years ahead of his time, risking his own ass to give you exactly what you needed to neutralize your depression- At least until society's misguided stigmas and unjust laws forced him to cease treatment.

Look Sandra, I can't blame you for seeing his actions through the lens of our current society, which would make his actions look a lot like medical malpractice. But you already know that an uncommon subtype of depression really does exist- An agonizing inner torment that can only be controlled with opiate medication. Knowing that, did your old doc really do anything wrong? Please think about it, ok?
Hi Frozen,
Sorry, I'm only four months late with replying to you! I didn't realize you wrote the above till just now, when it was bumped up by someone else... Anyway, there was a lot more going on with this doctor, than just prescribing thousands of pills per month to me. A WHOLE LOT more that I can't go into and his motive was NOT treating depression. Even though this board is fairly anonymous, it wouldn't take much to find out who people are, and then who the doctor is, etc etc... I don't want to jeopardize the lawsuit in any way because it should FINALLY be settled sometime in '08. But thanks for your concern and hardwork getting the word out for patients who do suffer from EDS/opiate deficiency and depression.
Sandra A.
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Unread 03-14-2008, 05:38 PM   #42
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Hi Frozen,

Want to thank you for all the info. It hit home like an atom bomb. I am currently addicted to percocet via restless leg treatment. I was on a moderate dose for 10 years and it kept my depression in check. Last year a new doctor replaced my old one and abruptly took me off the percocet (20mg daily). I went to the streets after failure upon failure with all the commercial antidepressants mentioned hear as well as the failure of the new restless leg medication, requip and mirapex. I have since gone from 20mg a day to 100mg because of the added stress induced depression of having to obtain meds illegally. You are so right about the quality of life issues with this form of depression. I have tried to detox on my own and the depression is overwhelming and crippling. I am at my wits end and spiraling deeper and deeper. I have never been so scared in my life. I have children to worry about and this adds to the pressure. I have come across this website and immediately made an appointment with a doctor for treatment. I may see him in 2 days, it is tentative. He told me about the initial drug free period and having to make arrangements with pharmacies because they don't stock the drug. This all seems like a lifetime away. My question to you, or anyone else who can offer some words of encouragement to a very desperate person is, how long will it take from the start of the 24hr drug free period to the point of obtaining a dosage that will alleviate this crippling depression? Anyone, please help?

Robertl
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Unread 06-02-2008, 05:01 AM   #43
tnurse
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Frozen - -
These are some of the most interesting writings I have seen in a long time. really different. I am new here -- just trying to take in the huge amount of info on the site. But there is something about this concept that rings true for me, at least to a certain degree. Still, it's just fascinating! - - and I will read more into it and follow some of the links as I have the time.

Thanks for this enlightening thread.
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Unread 10-31-2008, 06:21 PM   #44
kryan1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertl View Post
Hi Frozen,

Want to thank you for all the info. It hit home like an atom bomb. I am currently addicted to percocet via restless leg treatment. I was on a moderate dose for 10 years and it kept my depression in check. Last year a new doctor replaced my old one and abruptly took me off the percocet (20mg daily). I went to the streets after failure upon failure with all the commercial antidepressants mentioned hear as well as the failure of the new restless leg medication, requip and mirapex. I have since gone from 20mg a day to 100mg because of the added stress induced depression of having to obtain meds illegally. You are so right about the quality of life issues with this form of depression. I have tried to detox on my own and the depression is overwhelming and crippling. I am at my wits end and spiraling deeper and deeper. I have never been so scared in my life. I have children to worry about and this adds to the pressure. I have come across this website and immediately made an appointment with a doctor for treatment. I may see him in 2 days, it is tentative. He told me about the initial drug free period and having to make arrangements with pharmacies because they don't stock the drug. This all seems like a lifetime away. My question to you, or anyone else who can offer some words of encouragement to a very desperate person is, how long will it take from the start of the 24hr drug free period to the point of obtaining a dosage that will alleviate this crippling depression? Anyone, please help?

Robertl
i suffer from opiate induced depression not pretty.the 2nd day u should feel good on the suboxone.u will feel like a weight has been lifted off your shoulders good luck let me know how u made out. kelly
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Unread 04-20-2009, 09:22 AM   #45
aprilfoolsdaygotclean2002
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You know as I read these I realized something I never had before-Opiates actually make me feel better than anything in the world and the reason I have so much trouble living without them, and feel AD's don't really work is just that-opiates ARE the perfect AD for me. I know that sounds insane, but why haven't they put that theory to work and made an AD with opiate -likeness, just no adverse efects, (is there such a thing?) so we can survive without drugs but yet be happy? For years I have tried every drug there is to stop my depression and I also have been on Methadone. I am going to try Bupe when I get down low enough but frankly, I'm tired of the trials and waiting.
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Unread 04-20-2009, 12:07 PM   #46
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Hi April and welcome

I have been on sub for a year and it is the best medication ever! I do not get buzzed and it controls my pain.

I do however still have depression and can only guess that it would be worse if I was not on the sub.

Good luck and let us know when you decide to try the suboxone.

Glen
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Unread 06-11-2009, 01:42 AM   #47
shadykorn
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Default YEs amazing i found this same for me plz reply

Wow i have been depressed long time and also been on many anti depressants. I also have ocd/bad anxiety. I ended up self medicating with Dope and going to prison due to things i had to do to get money for it (theft/posession charges)
Anyway now i am on suboxone and it has helped tremendously . Only thing is i dont want to be on it forever and when i try to cut under 2 mg i start feeling depressed. So i dont know exactly what to do ........
I alaso had a situation where i relapsed on dope and of course im on parole since i have been to prison ( im almost finished) but when i relapsed i did some stupid stuff thats haunting me and has me scared i could get in trouble again . (probably worrying for nothing but real paranoid ) anyway any support here i can get is great. I also have a mother who suffers from depression and i wish i could get her on Sub because she is barely functioning and lost everything due to my father sending her away to jail due to harrasment charges when she was drinking...........So im really struglling with that too. But Sub has helped me to feel more confident in myself and do well in school and stay away from other drugs. (i have relapsed couple of time with other stuff but overall im doing well,and even though NA doesnt support Sub i go sometimes bc i have friends there) I do want to smoke pot when i get done parole and i hope that wont cause more problems for me, but if anyone here can talk to me it would mean a lot.
thanks
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Unread 10-30-2009, 09:30 AM   #48
lacyalbrent198
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so many people have wrote on here i just need to say i find my self feeling so deppressed and i know y but then i dont i have alot goin for me but i find my self getting iritated so so easily with my fiance parents we live with them and just everything i was on effexor not to long ago now that i think of it i think it mit have worked but not to well i was still deppresed o wasnt truely over it i know but at least i could some wut control it but that wasnt the real me wut do i doand i did just go off it 2 mounths now about

Quote:
Originally Posted by aprilfoolsdaygotclean2002 View Post
You know as I read these I realized something I never had before-Opiates actually make me feel better than anything in the world and the reason I have so much trouble living without them, and feel AD's don't really work is just that-opiates ARE the perfect AD for me. I know that sounds insane, but why haven't they put that theory to work and made an AD with opiate -likeness, just no adverse efects, (is there such a thing?) so we can survive without drugs but yet be happy? For years I have tried every drug there is to stop my depression and I also have been on Methadone. I am going to try Bupe when I get down low enough but frankly, I'm tired of the trials and waiting.
i totaly aggree i can almost garantee the main reason people on the pills like vicodine oxy cuz they want to get rid of their unhappy feeling depression it makes so much sence and i dont see y not make a anti depresant somelike an opiate they have saboxon and hello it is an opiate so wut the diff people can still get high on this stuff so i dont get it i know some one that can get high on not even 1mg of saboxon they must be a freak of nature i guesss but thatwouldnt be hard to come up with and i know it would actuLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM NO MORE PEOPLE TRYING ALL DIFFRENT KINDS OF ANTI DEPPRESANTS ITS LIKE THEY DO THIS PURPOSLY THEY KNOW THAT WOULD WORK HOW COULD THEY ACTUALY NOT HAVE THOUGHT BOUT IT THEY JUST WANT MONEY AND ITS BULLSHIT ANYWAY I HOPE THAY CAN COME UP WITH A N OPIATE ANTI IT WOULD WORK AND INSTAD OF PEOPLE STRUGGLING IN GROUPS ALL DIFFRENT KINDS OF MED ACTING LIKE IT DOES HELP THEY WILL BE CURED
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Unread 01-17-2010, 08:06 PM   #49
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thank you for this post. i have a 20 year old son who has become addicted to hydrocodone. he says it's the only drug that ever made him feel normal -- he's been on a variety of anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, benzo's, vitamins, supplements -- i feel like we've tried a lot of things.

he's been struggling with depression & anxiety since puberty.

i'm going to attempt to make him an appointment with a suboxone dr -- i'm hoping we've finally found something that could work for him long-term.
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Unread 05-12-2010, 01:17 PM   #50
motorcyclemke
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Hi everyone I am living proof that Suboxone helps depression, I have almost had every med and many ECT treatments for depression and nothing helped until I was given a script for Suboxone, I can barely get out of bed without it and I also feel relaxed which is something I never felt unless I was on a strong pain med like Demerol, at sunrise I place it under my Tongue and go back to sleep and it wakes me up a few hours later.

Mike
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