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Unread 03-29-2011, 02:07 PM   #1301
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Thanks, Nancy! I lost my Dad in '96, but losing my Mom was 100x worse. Now we have bickering among my sisters, who feel I'm t cuz I'm an addict, even though I did it all for her for 10+ years while they were off living their own lives.

I did all Mom's checkbook for a long while, and there was always 10-12K in there....enough to handle stuff 4-5 months to settle down. They decided to close it and turn everything to her trust lawyer, so now everything is tied up (for Gog knows how long) in probate.

So now, I'm practically destitute, though I did get a job at the Country Club. They Ordered me to apply for social services (all I'm eligible for is food stamps). For a guy who worked since age 14, has a BS and MBA, it was not a pleasant experience. I truly believe they thought I might kill myself (which is NOT my style), so they call each other, interpret everything I say, gossip, then start calling people to "help" me. It sucks!

Enough tales of woe.....thanks for the nice note!

Tom
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Unread 10-28-2011, 06:59 AM   #1302
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The article below by SubOxDoc was the most helpful and informative item I've read yet. It covered so many of my questions, thoughts, worries, guilt feelings, etc. Wish to thank Toms for submitting it. I feel I never want to get off Bup. It makes me feel "normal" at only .5/daily.





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Originally Posted by toms View Post
I have been away several weeks due to the unexpected death of my mom. It certainly drove home the point that I don't have to get smashed to become crazy as a loon....it hurt, and continues to!

Thought I'd add another article by SubOxDoc, this one on diversion:

"
Buprenorphine Availability and Diversion

by SuboxDoc on February 27, 2011


Since I began using buprenorphine to treat opioid dependence in my psychiatry practice, I’ve learned quite a bit about what works and what doesn’t work. Buprenorphine is an amazing medication when used properly, and undoubtedly saves thousands of lives each year.
Even when used improperly, buprenorphine has life-saving properties. Addicts who take buprenorphine illicitly, but above a threshold dose and frequency, will become tolerant to the effects of the drug, and will be largely protected from overdose. There is little appreciation for this part of the story, which is understandable. We cannot expect society to embrace the illicit use of a substance. Buprenorphine is, after all, an opioid, with some abuse potential. There are appropriate efforts underway to reduce the diversion of buprenorphine; efforts that I wholeheartedly agree with. But some forms of diversion are worse than others. And a close look at the experiences of opioid addicts suggests that efforts to control buprenorphine may actually increase diversion of the drug. I should emphasize that my opinion on this subject is ‘anecdotal,’ not scientific. But I receive many, many e-mails from opioid addicts across the country, and their stories are the basis for my comments.
The most damaging form of buprenorphine diversion occurs when opioid-naďve people take the drug. Buprenorphine is a microgram drug in a milligram tablet. People who chip off a quarter of a Suboxone tablet are handling 2000 micrograms of a very potent opioid. That amount of buprenorphine alone won’t usually kill a person. But if combined with a second respiratory depressant, death is possible—perhaps even likely in opioid-naďve people. This type of diversion—the use of buprenorphine by opioid-naďve people, or by people not yet addicted to opioids—should be the focus of efforts to prevent diversion.
Another type of diversion occurs when desperate opioid addicts seek out buprenorphine to ‘treat themselves’ for their addiction. Opioid addicts choose this route, over going to a doctor for legitimate treatment, for a number of reasons. Some may be on the fence between quitting vs. continuing active use of opioid agonists. Some are caught up in the struggle to simply get by each day, and don’t have the presence of mind to seek out treatment providers. Some don’t have enough money to pay for treatment—although as I have written in the past, they would almost surely come out ahead financially in the long run by getting treatment. And finally, in some cases there are no doctors in their area who prescribe buprenorphine or who have openings under the ‘cap.’
I do not intend to legitimize this type of diversion, i.e. self-treatment by people with opioid dependence. But we should be honest and accurate with assessments of the current status of buprenorphine treatment. It is clear that opioid addicts who find and use buprenorphine are far better off than those who don’t. If there is no legitimate treatment available, I have a hard time condemning someone who finds and uses buprenorphine, as that behavior will greatly increase their odds of survival. If someone I loved became addicted to opioids, my first thought would be to get that person on buprenorphine as quickly as possible. Taking buprenorphine regularly would lower the risk of overdose, reduce the risk of impulsive behavior related to cravings, and immediately place the addiction in remission, blocking the imprint of addictive behavior on the brain—the conditioning that at some point turns chemical dependence into a lifelong disease.
Counseling—cure or crock?
Much is made of the need for counseling in addition to buprenorphine. Again, I agree with the need for counseling in some cases, particularly in young people, or those with polysubstance dependence. But I take issue with practitioners who require that every patient engage in weekly group therapy for an indefinite period of time. From the stories I’ve received, it seems that no thought is given to the type of therapy, the education of the ‘therapist,’ or even whether or not the type of therapy is consistent with the use of buprenorphine! Instead there is a blind assumption that therapy is inherently good, without any effort to determine whether or not the therapy improves outcomes. I am amused when I read studies that show no significant effect of counseling on outcome, but then conclude that counseling is a good idea– in spite of the findings of the study. I see wisdom in the requirement for certification to prescribe buprenorphine that counseling services be available, rather than mandating counseling in all cases. Some practitioners appear to miss the distinction.
Psychotherapy is not ALWAYS good. I’ve witnessed situations where the prescribing physician is emphasizing the need for long-term buprenorphine maintenance, while the counselor the patients are required to see encourages the patients to ‘get off Suboxone.’ Even in better situations, it is difficult to determine the efficiency of psychotherapy, if someone even took the time to consider that issue—which nobody seems to do. People have written me about all sorts of requirements that they face, including weekly doctor appointments without any drop in frequency over time, or daily 12-step-group attendance for as long as they are on buprenorphine. The latter is another example of the folly of simply demanding something just for the sake of doing so. I’ve written in the past about why 12-step programs are less appropriate for people on buprenorphine; the steps are best accepted by people who are desperate, and buprenorphine eliminates desperation almost immediately. From my own experiences as doctor and as addict, we should consider treating with either buprenorphine or the steps— not both. Some physicians may disagree with my perspective, but I hope they are at least weighing in their minds the reasons for their treatment approaches.
When one understands the mechanism of action of buprenorphine—the simple but elegant way that a partial agonist tricks the brain by eliminating any change in opioid effect—one can understand why in some cases, remission from addiction will occur with medication alone, without need for counseling.
Not enough docs
I recently had to ask several patients to find new physicians, because of issues related to state licensing. They are all struggling to find people who will treat them. In a couple cases there are no doctors within a 2-hour radius with openings for buprenorphine patients because of the ‘cap.’ I respect the cap, and I’ve taken on very few new cases in the last couple years because of it. But patients on buprenorphine for long-term maintenance do very well after a year or two, and were it not for the cap I could easily care for twice as many patients. I find it strange that a pain doc can prescribe oxycodone to a thousand patients without need for any special certificate, yet buprenorphine treatment programs are capped at 100 patients.
Beyond the shortage of doctors, the doctors who do have openings in some cases appear to take advantage of the situation. If a patient has been stable on buprenorphine for two years, is it reasonable to require a month of intensive outpatient treatment in the doctor’s own facility? Is it reasonable to charge over $300 for each visit—and require visits every two weeks, indefinitely?
I see no action by any addiction society to address this type of issue. And as an addict, this lack of action feels discriminatory. Shouldn’t the societies (ASAM, SAMHSA) be advocating for the rights of patients with the disease of addiction? Isn’t access to treatment a fundamental issue for patients?
There are a number of efforts in place to limit the prescribing of buprenorphine. In many ways the medication is regulated more closely than schedule II opioids. And prescriptions for buprenorphine seem to carry greater stigma at the local pharmacy than do prescriptions for oxycodone. The efforts to prevent diversion are in place—but where are the efforts to increase the availability of treatment? And how much of the second type of diversion that I described above could be prevented by increasing access to reasonable treatment?
I have been a physician for over 20 years. Rarely in the field of medicine does something come along with such potential to save lives. Given the epidemic of opioid dependence, shouldn’t someone, somewhere, be writing legislation that makes such treatment more available?"


Jeff Junig, PhD, MD
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Unread 12-01-2011, 07:06 PM   #1303
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from the SuboxDoc;
"Beyond the shortage of doctors, the doctors who do have openings in some cases appear to take advantage of the situation. If a patient has been stable on buprenorphine for two years, is it reasonable to require a month of intensive outpatient treatment in the doctor’s own facility? Is it reasonable to charge over $300 for each visit—and require visits every two weeks, indefinitely?"

I have been a Bupe patient for a bit longer than I've been a member of this website(way back when the site was NABBT.org, or something like that,,,,).
Though I don't pay my doctor &300.00 p/ visit,($100.00/per, is what he charges for a monthly visit.) I feel that every other month or two would fit my financial situation much better. Maybe once a year he will write me a refill and not require a visit. That is usually after I bring him in bags of home grown Habeńeros or frozen ziplock bags of seeded out pomegranates, which we have growing abundantly around the house. He's been a good, knowledgeable doctor, but a hundred a month adds up after awhile. The medication is expensive enough. I don't believe my Pharmacist will do any bartering with me for the meds. I really can't complain all that much, I'm having some of the happiest times that I've ever had. I've literally crawled out of the gutter w/ the help of Bupe.
I'm just wondering, does anyone know how much methadone clinics charge? Are they even around anymore?
later,,,
Scott...
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Unread 12-01-2011, 07:25 PM   #1304
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Scott, sit down and speak with him. I haven't had to have monthly visits in a long, long time now. Further, if you are paying cash, he can write it off script for pain, open up a slot in his Sub program and move you to every 3rd month! He wins, he still keeps you as a patient and he opens a spot up on his Sub program side!

Mike
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Unread 12-01-2011, 07:52 PM   #1305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMike View Post
Scott, sit down and speak with him. I haven't had to have monthly visits in a long, long time now. Further, if you are paying cash, he can write it off script for pain, open up a slot in his Sub program and move you to every 3rd month! He wins, he still keeps you as a patient and he opens a spot up on his Sub program side!

Mike
Hey thanks Mike. I'll ponder on that idea. Boy, when I think back, I've been a real 'cash cow' for him.
I'm not too sure if he is full, as far as Sub patients, however. But I've been meaning to speak to him about this for awhile now. The way the economy has been, I'm barely hanging in there. I see him again in 2 weeks. I'll mention it to him then...
Thaks again Mike. It's good to see that you are still around, alive and kicking!!!
Scott...
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Unread 12-29-2011, 09:05 PM   #1306
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Unhappy Suboxone is a crutch to me now

I hate Suboxone......my Dr hasn't allowed me to taper this past 14 months so I did it myself. I am down to 1/8th strip every 4-5 days and only take it when needed. No Dr. should be allowed to dictate to anyone when they are ready to taper or not, a person knows their body and knows when they are ready to cut back. This Suboxone Rx with Drs treating people is such a scam... I will write more tomorrow after I complete talks with my ins. company. This program should be regulated and no Dr should be allowed to capitalize on someones addiction keeping them on Sub indefinately. I am so pissed at this point in my life about the whole thing, both at myself and the Drs. for abusing the system.
I will write more tomorrow after my insurance co. finishes it's conversation with my Dr. It sure wasn't pretty. There has to be regulation concerning the prescribing of this drug, just as ther is regulation with Lortab etc..... pissed in PC...I am so tired...Jamielee
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Unread 12-30-2011, 01:12 PM   #1307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamielee View Post
I hate Suboxone......my Dr hasn't allowed me to taper this past 14 months so I did it myself. I am down to 1/8th strip every 4-5 days and only take it when needed. No Dr. should be allowed to dictate to anyone when they are ready to taper or not, a person knows their body and knows when they are ready to cut back. This Suboxone Rx with Drs treating people is such a scam... I will write more tomorrow after I complete talks with my ins. company. This program should be regulated and no Dr should be allowed to capitalize on someones addiction keeping them on Sub indefinately. I am so pissed at this point in my life about the whole thing, both at myself and the Drs. for abusing the system.
I will write more tomorrow after my insurance co. finishes it's conversation with my Dr. It sure wasn't pretty. There has to be regulation concerning the prescribing of this drug, just as ther is regulation with Lortab etc..... pissed in PC...I am so tired...Jamielee
1/8 of s trip every 3-4 days, is nothing, its all in your head at this point and if it bothers you so much you should just stop and free up the space for someone who needs to save their life.

Suboxone is regulated, in fact its over regulated, that's why its so hard to find a doctor, and when you do most don't take insurance and can make rules like mandatory NA meetings (who try and talk you out of treatment anyways) and monthly visits.

If you don't need sub you shouldn't be on it, its only for people who need it and would relapse without it. If you don't need it to stay addiction-free why are you still taking it? Would you keep taking high blood pressure medication if you didn't have high blood pressure? Of course you shouldn't be on it if you don't need it.

There's another way to look at this, your suboxone treatment has been so successful that you've been able to taper down to a very low level, something you were unable to do while addicted. Congratulations!

Sub
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Unread 12-30-2011, 02:45 PM   #1308
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No Sub, it is not all in my head at this point. I know what I feel after day 4-5 without taking it. Who made you an authority on this anyway? You are not in my body and cannot know how I feel, it is not the same for everyone you know. Go back and read some of your own posts!
There you go again assuming...I no longer go to that Dr for Sub, or for anything. That spot is free for the next person who needs help. I have a stock pile of Suboxone from tapering -against his will. You see he wants that 250.00 every month.... so that's why he says I'm not ready to taper. I'm not a stupid lady. Ya, I know that a Suboxone Dr. can make any rule he wants pertaining to Sub visits, you act as though I'm so naive concerning this subject. I've been on this medication for 14 months.
Lets see, would I keep taking blood pressure medication if I didn't need it? You insult my intelligence! I know that Sub is only for people who need it so they won't relapse. No I don't need it, that's why I'm tapering and almost done. Are you jealous?? Some people have to taper all the way down to the tiniest amount before they can quit comfortably, it is a case by case treatment.
You should not assume things Sub. You know what they say about that...it makes an ass out of you, not me!! I need no reminder that I was unable to taper off Lortab, duh...that's why I put myself on Suboxone. But thanks for the congrats anyway and please watch your assumptions in the future Mr. know it all. Jamielee
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Unread 12-31-2011, 12:07 PM   #1309
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JL,
May I suggest you try to take the word 'HATE' out of your vocabulary,,,and do not forget the phrase, 'Resentment is our number one offender"...

Scott....
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Unread 12-31-2011, 12:14 PM   #1310
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Originally Posted by OhioMike http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...s/viewpost.gif
"Scott, sit down and speak with him. I haven't had to have monthly visits in a long, long time now. Further, if you are paying cash, he can write it off script for pain, open up a slot in his Sub program and move you to every 3rd month! He wins, he still keeps you as a patient and he opens a spot up on his Sub program side!"

Mike


Mike,
My doctor and I met in the middle. I'm seeing him every other month.
He is not anywhere close to having a full slate of sub patients. I'm fine w/ this,(I'll save $600.00 a year)....

Scott....
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Unread 12-31-2011, 12:31 PM   #1311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamielee View Post
No Sub, it is not all in my head at this point. I know what I feel after day 4-5 without taking it. Who made you an authority on this anyway? You are not in my body and cannot know how I feel, it is not the same for everyone you know. Go back and read some of your own posts!
There you go again assuming...I no longer go to that Dr for Sub, or for anything. That spot is free for the next person who needs help. I have a stock pile of Suboxone from tapering -against his will. You see he wants that 250.00 every month.... so that's why he says I'm not ready to taper. I'm not a stupid lady. Ya, I know that a Suboxone Dr. can make any rule he wants pertaining to Sub visits, you act as though I'm so naive concerning this subject. I've been on this medication for 14 months.
Lets see, would I keep taking blood pressure medication if I didn't need it? You insult my intelligence! I know that Sub is only for people who need it so they won't relapse. No I don't need it, that's why I'm tapering and almost done. Are you jealous?? Some people have to taper all the way down to the tiniest amount before they can quit comfortably, it is a case by case treatment.
You should not assume things Sub. You know what they say about that...it makes an ass out of you, not me!! I need no reminder that I was unable to taper off Lortab, duh...that's why I put myself on Suboxone. But thanks for the congrats anyway and please watch your assumptions in the future Mr. know it all. Jamielee
Please don’t let your outrage at my assumptions distract you from my point. Which is, if you don’t need bupe any longer, there is no need to keep taking it, and be angry about it. But if you do need it, don’t let your understanding of dependence/addiction keep you from considering it in the future. What I’m saying is don’t write-off a drug that could save your life, and may already have. Don’t you think it’s amazing that you were able to taper bupe down to practically nothing but when taking other opiates your dose only went up? I think you are looking at this all wrong and should be very happy and proud of yourself for being able to taper down so low. Bupe worked for you, but you talk about it like it didn’t. I’m afraid people reading who are still addicted won’t consider bupe because of your negative message. That would be a disservice to people who want what you have now, a very low (if any) dependence on opiates. You are a success story! If you look at your situation that way you might be happier.

Happy New Year,
Sub

Ps. I was on bupe for 7 years and tapered off without much trouble years ago.
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Unread 12-31-2011, 12:40 PM   #1312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluice7 View Post
Originally Posted by OhioMike http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...s/viewpost.gif
"Scott, sit down and speak with him. I haven't had to have monthly visits in a long, long time now. Further, if you are paying cash, he can write it off script for pain, open up a slot in his Sub program and move you to every 3rd month! He wins, he still keeps you as a patient and he opens a spot up on his Sub program side!"

Mike

Mike,
My doctor and I met in the middle. I'm seeing him every other month.
He is not anywhere close to having a full slate of sub patients. I'm fine w/ this,(I'll save $600.00 a year)....

Scott....


GREAT news Scott! ......... A good NEW YEAR present! lol
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Unread 12-31-2011, 12:46 PM   #1313
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Jamielee, though I am tempted, I am not going to get into the particulars of your exchange with SubZ ……. But I would like to share an opinion I have based on reading this and many other forums for more than 6 years now, about Sub. Not only is SubZ’s personal experiences and story one which has helped me tremendously, but SubZ is one of the select people I always refer people to for sound, accurate and well educated advice & opinion. SubZ is not one to share with malice or personal interest in mind, but, always to help and benefit another. Take it for whatever you think its worth & I hope the New Year is a very blessed one for you.

Mike
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Unread 01-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #1314
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This site is for healing rather than complaining. Thanks Mike and Sub for the positive feedback.
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Unread 01-10-2012, 11:38 PM   #1315
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I am new to this site and fairly new to Sub as well, but I can say with profound accuracy that MAT has saved my life. I was on Methadone for 3 years and had wanted to switch for the longest time, I was the first to admit that while I was no longer using illicitly, I was still in an Opiate fog. Sub has saved my life.....It is disheartening to read such negative things about treatment when I am so new to an actual sober recovery. I know that what I am doing is what is best for me and while I may not be 100% thrilled with all the hoops I have to jump through to get my script, I will continue to do so because I know that this is the best chance that I have got. I am still feeling some laggy, lethargic, blah moods, but have been told that I am still technically feeling some Methadone withdrawal. I do not know how true this is, but I do know that I am at least hopeful that things will get better soon. I really want to dive into my recovery and do all the meetings that my center wants me to do, but at this point, I am having a hard enough time doing the things that I already have to do. I know that meetings are important and that there is a difference between abstinence and recovery and I am striving to be "recovered" not just sober! I am really glad that I found this site, I have already learned a lot from the other posters!
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Unread 01-11-2012, 07:14 AM   #1316
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Hi heather9573, welcome. When did you switch from methadone and how much methadone were you taking when you switched? Did you start at 20mg a day (I read in another thread that's your dose currently) or start lower or higher and go up or down?

Just curious to know how many meetings a week do you have to go to and do they make any exceptions if you find that it's just too much?

Sorry for all the questions.

Nancy
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Unread 01-11-2012, 10:06 AM   #1317
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Hi Nancy,

I only switched to Sub about 4 weeks ago....maybe a little longer. I was on Methadone for about 2 years and before I started to detox on it I was at 95 mg. It was a huge mistake, but the clinic that I was going to was more of a maintenance clinic versus a recovery type place. There were lots of people there that had been on Methadone for years and had no plans of ever stopping. Where I live though, there are not a lot of options for people with this disease. I live close to Cincinnati which is a fairly conservative area and addiction is seen with a rather negative stigma. I know that is true of a lot of places, but I know that I had a lot of problems figuring out how to get my life back together. Most of the Sub doctors in this area wanted a huge amount of money to even get started with the consultation. I think that at that point, the cheapest one I found was almost $400. I had just lost my job and my husband had no idea how bad my addiction had become. I was still fairly ensconced in denial and I had not really come completely clean with him. I knew that things were still tenuous with our relationship so I knew that I couldn't ask him for the money. There was no one in my family that could help me out since I had burnt most of those bridges when I was at my worst. I did the only thing that I knew to do and that was go to the clinic where at least I could get off of illicit drugs and start working on my recovery. My intention even at the beginning was to switch to Sub, but I quickly got caught up with the whole Methadone thing. They started my dose out at 35 mg and allowed you to go up 5 mg every other day for the first 10 days. After that I could still raise my dose 5 mg every few days as long as the doctor approved it, a doctor that I had never even seen. Within a few months, I was up to my highest dose which I said before was 95 mg. About 6 months ago I made the very difficult decision to start tapering my dose down so that I could either get off Methadone completely or switch to Sub if going off Methadone proved to be too difficult. I got my dose down to 40 mg and started going to a place that I randomly found on the internet...........It was a God send. The center that I go to is only about 10 minutes from my house and my insurance pays for it since it is considered a medical condition and an actual disease. After the initial intake appointment, I had to detox from the Methadone. They wanted me to be at least 72 hours from my last dose before I took the Sub. The day that I went back for my detox and induction appointment, I was at like 85 hours into detox and withdrawal. It was the longest and the worst thing I have ever had to physically endure. The withdrawal from Methadone was 100 times worse than any withdrawal I had ever gone through previously, worse even than heroin. The first day of my induction they started me on 2 strips, 16 mg. When I went back for the 2nd day I was still having withdrawal symptoms so they increased me to 20 mg. The center that I am going to required me to come in for intensive therapy, following the 3 day induction, for 10 days straight for 2 hours a day. Now that I have stabilized, I have to go there 3 days a week for 3 hours a time. Once I am at the action stage of my recovery, and have obtained a sponsor, been going to 4 NA/AA meetings a week on top of the group at the center, and completed steps 1-3, I will be transitioned to After Care. They still want you to go to meetings at that point but say that you can cut down to 3 meetings a week while still coming for group once a week for 90 minutes.

There are a lot of things that they want you to do, basically working a program that keeps you on the path to recovery as long as you are working it. There are a lot of people that complain about having to do so much just to get their Subs, but to me, it is all worth it. I had been trying to stay sober all on my own, without counseling, without any tangible higher power to support me and no stable support system in place. While I was maintaining my sobriety on Methadone, I could feel myself heading down the road to relapse. Finding the center I go to is like feeling the sun again after being locked in a dark basement. I know that they are helping me save my own life. I am also very excited to have found this site as it gives me another resource to find education and support. Thanks so much!
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Unread 01-11-2012, 12:51 PM   #1318
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heather,
Thank you for sharing your experience's. You said alot, in just so few words...
Trust me when I tell you how your story really helps myself and many others on this site. Thanks for being here and finding us. Stick around awhile, this is a great and safe place to be!!!
Scott....

Last edited by Sluice7; 01-11-2012 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: Early morning fog,,,/apostrophe,etc.,,,,
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Unread 01-11-2012, 01:31 PM   #1319
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Heather,
Hi and welcome, and I totally agree with Scott. sharing your story helps so many others. I was wondering if when you go to AA/NA meetings if they know you are on suboxone, and if they do, how you are treated?

Just wondering because of other people's experience with that. Many were negative.

Sounds like you are off to a great start!

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Unread 01-11-2012, 04:14 PM   #1320
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Hi heather9573, thanks for explaining all of that for us. Ditto what Scott and vhappy said also about your story helping so many.

That's really quite intensive program, but I'm glad it's helping you with that solid foundation for your recovery.

One thing about how your feeling, if you continue to feel lethargic, then talk with your doctor about maybe trying a dose reduction - oftentimes with methadone to Suboxone transfers, the patient may a higher dose at the beginning of treatment but then be able to reduce down a little after stabilization. When you get a chance, check your pupils in normal light, they can also be an indication. If they small, then it might be time to try a reduction so you can start feeling better.

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Unread 01-17-2012, 03:03 PM   #1321
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Thanks to everyone for responding! It makes me feel so much better to realize that I am not alone out there in the big scary world of recovery! Vhappy....I don't usually tell people about Suboxone unless I am asked specifically about it. The input that I have gotten from others is that people who quit without MAT tend to act like we are "cheating" or that they are better than us. I just really don't know know why anyone, if posed the option, would choose to go through detox and withdrawal without any help from something like Suboxone.
Nancy, for the last 4 or 5 days, I have cut my dose down on my own from 2 1/2 strips to just 2, and now for the last 3 days down to 1 1/2 strips. I am starting to feel better, I just wish that when I started going to my new center, that they had better informed me about the difficulties with switching from Methadone to Sub. It was not as easy as I thought that it would be. It has been somewhat disheartening. I really expected to feel like all these other people in my group. Here they are announcing to the group that they feel better than they have in years and how they are seeing everything without feeling like they are in fog. I wish that is what I felt like! I am still operating on auto-pilot and walking around waiting for the day that I feel like a "normal" person again! Don't get me wrong....the way that I feel now and the way that my life is going right now is a definite plus to the way that things were going before I started treatment. Things with me personally as well as physically have dramatically improved and I would not do anything differently with my decision to start taking Suboxone. It was the best thing that I could have done for myself and for my family and I know that it saved me. I just want to feel wonderful and fantastic like others do and not just simply good.....Know what I mean?

Thanks so much for being supportive and for letting me know that you are all here for me while I am struggling! I am definitely going to stick around! I am glad that I found you!
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Unread 01-29-2012, 02:19 PM   #1322
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Thumbs up You hit the nail on the head

Dear Dr:
I am a mom of one addicted. I agree with everything you have stated. My son successfully took the pill for suboxin for four yrs. He met with a psychiatrist every two weeks. Then this Dr. gave up the sub practice and we had to scramble to get another dr. We did find one however he did not counsel my son as the dr before. When the state switched from the pill to the film my son had a very hard time with this. He ended up using alcohol as a substitute. Well he became an alocoholic very quickly (9 months) ended up with alcoholic pancreatitis and a dui. I am grateful for dui because it made him realize he had a problem. He went to rehab for only two weeks because that is all the state would pay for. He now is back on suboxin and just getting the dose regulated. I was always hounding him to get off of it. Now I know that he will need to take this the rest of his life, and we are both o.k. with that. I just wish that it would be easier dispensed without himn going thru hell to get recertified constantly. This drug works. How does a person lobby to get this drug deregulated?
mom of one addicted





Quote:
Originally Posted by toms View Post
I have been away several weeks due to the unexpected death of my mom. It certainly drove home the point that I don't have to get smashed to become crazy as a loon....it hurt, and continues to!

Thought I'd add another article by SubOxDoc, this one on diversion:

"
Buprenorphine Availability and Diversion

by SuboxDoc on February 27, 2011


Since I began using buprenorphine to treat opioid dependence in my psychiatry practice, I’ve learned quite a bit about what works and what doesn’t work. Buprenorphine is an amazing medication when used properly, and undoubtedly saves thousands of lives each year.
Even when used improperly, buprenorphine has life-saving properties. Addicts who take buprenorphine illicitly, but above a threshold dose and frequency, will become tolerant to the effects of the drug, and will be largely protected from overdose. There is little appreciation for this part of the story, which is understandable. We cannot expect society to embrace the illicit use of a substance. Buprenorphine is, after all, an opioid, with some abuse potential. There are appropriate efforts underway to reduce the diversion of buprenorphine; efforts that I wholeheartedly agree with. But some forms of diversion are worse than others. And a close look at the experiences of opioid addicts suggests that efforts to control buprenorphine may actually increase diversion of the drug. I should emphasize that my opinion on this subject is ‘anecdotal,’ not scientific. But I receive many, many e-mails from opioid addicts across the country, and their stories are the basis for my comments.
The most damaging form of buprenorphine diversion occurs when opioid-naďve people take the drug. Buprenorphine is a microgram drug in a milligram tablet. People who chip off a quarter of a Suboxone tablet are handling 2000 micrograms of a very potent opioid. That amount of buprenorphine alone won’t usually kill a person. But if combined with a second respiratory depressant, death is possible—perhaps even likely in opioid-naďve people. This type of diversion—the use of buprenorphine by opioid-naďve people, or by people not yet addicted to opioids—should be the focus of efforts to prevent diversion.
Another type of diversion occurs when desperate opioid addicts seek out buprenorphine to ‘treat themselves’ for their addiction. Opioid addicts choose this route, over going to a doctor for legitimate treatment, for a number of reasons. Some may be on the fence between quitting vs. continuing active use of opioid agonists. Some are caught up in the struggle to simply get by each day, and don’t have the presence of mind to seek out treatment providers. Some don’t have enough money to pay for treatment—although as I have written in the past, they would almost surely come out ahead financially in the long run by getting treatment. And finally, in some cases there are no doctors in their area who prescribe buprenorphine or who have openings under the ‘cap.’
I do not intend to legitimize this type of diversion, i.e. self-treatment by people with opioid dependence. But we should be honest and accurate with assessments of the current status of buprenorphine treatment. It is clear that opioid addicts who find and use buprenorphine are far better off than those who don’t. If there is no legitimate treatment available, I have a hard time condemning someone who finds and uses buprenorphine, as that behavior will greatly increase their odds of survival. If someone I loved became addicted to opioids, my first thought would be to get that person on buprenorphine as quickly as possible. Taking buprenorphine regularly would lower the risk of overdose, reduce the risk of impulsive behavior related to cravings, and immediately place the addiction in remission, blocking the imprint of addictive behavior on the brain—the conditioning that at some point turns chemical dependence into a lifelong disease.
Counseling—cure or crock?
Much is made of the need for counseling in addition to buprenorphine. Again, I agree with the need for counseling in some cases, particularly in young people, or those with polysubstance dependence. But I take issue with practitioners who require that every patient engage in weekly group therapy for an indefinite period of time. From the stories I’ve received, it seems that no thought is given to the type of therapy, the education of the ‘therapist,’ or even whether or not the type of therapy is consistent with the use of buprenorphine! Instead there is a blind assumption that therapy is inherently good, without any effort to determine whether or not the therapy improves outcomes. I am amused when I read studies that show no significant effect of counseling on outcome, but then conclude that counseling is a good idea– in spite of the findings of the study. I see wisdom in the requirement for certification to prescribe buprenorphine that counseling services be available, rather than mandating counseling in all cases. Some practitioners appear to miss the distinction.
Psychotherapy is not ALWAYS good. I’ve witnessed situations where the prescribing physician is emphasizing the need for long-term buprenorphine maintenance, while the counselor the patients are required to see encourages the patients to ‘get off Suboxone.’ Even in better situations, it is difficult to determine the efficiency of psychotherapy, if someone even took the time to consider that issue—which nobody seems to do. People have written me about all sorts of requirements that they face, including weekly doctor appointments without any drop in frequency over time, or daily 12-step-group attendance for as long as they are on buprenorphine. The latter is another example of the folly of simply demanding something just for the sake of doing so. I’ve written in the past about why 12-step programs are less appropriate for people on buprenorphine; the steps are best accepted by people who are desperate, and buprenorphine eliminates desperation almost immediately. From my own experiences as doctor and as addict, we should consider treating with either buprenorphine or the steps— not both. Some physicians may disagree with my perspective, but I hope they are at least weighing in their minds the reasons for their treatment approaches.
When one understands the mechanism of action of buprenorphine—the simple but elegant way that a partial agonist tricks the brain by eliminating any change in opioid effect—one can understand why in some cases, remission from addiction will occur with medication alone, without need for counseling.
Not enough docs
I recently had to ask several patients to find new physicians, because of issues related to state licensing. They are all struggling to find people who will treat them. In a couple cases there are no doctors within a 2-hour radius with openings for buprenorphine patients because of the ‘cap.’ I respect the cap, and I’ve taken on very few new cases in the last couple years because of it. But patients on buprenorphine for long-term maintenance do very well after a year or two, and were it not for the cap I could easily care for twice as many patients. I find it strange that a pain doc can prescribe oxycodone to a thousand patients without need for any special certificate, yet buprenorphine treatment programs are capped at 100 patients.
Beyond the shortage of doctors, the doctors who do have openings in some cases appear to take advantage of the situation. If a patient has been stable on buprenorphine for two years, is it reasonable to require a month of intensive outpatient treatment in the doctor’s own facility? Is it reasonable to charge over $300 for each visit—and require visits every two weeks, indefinitely?
I see no action by any addiction society to address this type of issue. And as an addict, this lack of action feels discriminatory. Shouldn’t the societies (ASAM, SAMHSA) be advocating for the rights of patients with the disease of addiction? Isn’t access to treatment a fundamental issue for patients?
There are a number of efforts in place to limit the prescribing of buprenorphine. In many ways the medication is regulated more closely than schedule II opioids. And prescriptions for buprenorphine seem to carry greater stigma at the local pharmacy than do prescriptions for oxycodone. The efforts to prevent diversion are in place—but where are the efforts to increase the availability of treatment? And how much of the second type of diversion that I described above could be prevented by increasing access to reasonable treatment?
I have been a physician for over 20 years. Rarely in the field of medicine does something come along with such potential to save lives. Given the epidemic of opioid dependence, shouldn’t someone, somewhere, be writing legislation that makes such treatment more available?"


Jeff Junig, PhD, MD
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Unread 01-29-2012, 06:13 PM   #1323
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"I have been a physician for over 20 years. Rarely in the field of medicine does something come along with such potential to save lives. Given the epidemic of opioid dependence, shouldn’t someone, somewhere, be writing legislation that makes such treatment more available?"


I have my Congressman's ph.# and address.(He is a very reasonable person)..
I believe if just half of us wrote to our representitives,(State and Federal) that we could get something started.
It is extremely ridiculous, the fact that oxycodone and all those other's are more accessible and do not carry the 'negative stigma' that has been bestowed upon Sub. It's mind blowing at times and we do need new legislation.
To; 'mom of one addicted', I'm also an alcoholic(in remission) and Sub has helped me immensely in staying away from the booze. I don't really know if anyone else has this happen when there taking Sub, but I know for sure it has been helping me.
Sub, to me, has been a miracle medication. I don't know where I'd be, if I hadn't found it 5yrs. ago.
We need ACTION to keep Sub around. Mainly for the person who is still out there, suffering...
Scott...
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Unread 10-03-2012, 11:50 AM   #1324
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I have been on suboxone for almost a year now it has helped me in many ways. I was able to get my life back on track. I was able to get a good job and buy a house. It helped me in a very hard time in my life. If it wasnt for suboxone i dont know where i would be. Im very thankful for it. it has really helped me alot in life.
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Unread 10-05-2012, 01:06 PM   #1325
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Default Well Said!!!

Thanks Derek,
I couldn't have said it any better!!!
Scott.....
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Unread 11-28-2012, 03:50 AM   #1326
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What made anyone think of useing this type of medication to help people off pain killers or ron. Dont get me rong i think its great. Its just that methadone was a joke. Just blows my mind how well this works.

Yes suboxone is a blessing for sure. My life was falling apart. I work, sleep, eat, and dont get all messed up.

Well i guess i should be happy my doc only costs 150 a mont but thats sttill alot for someone who only makes a grand a month. My bills cost more then what i make a month. But this medication has saved my life. Now i do understand why they do suboxone like they do it, so it cant be missused, but come on who wants to try and use this stuff to get high. You can. I mean b4 i started going to a doc to get it i was getting it off the streets and took a few once and it did not do anything. Its sad that it is made so hard to get. I am 34 and been an addicted since i was 16. This stuff is a life saver for people like me

I just wish that suboxone would keep a good name in the publics eyes and made easier to get
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Unread 12-10-2012, 12:58 AM   #1327
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Default I agree and it's making my life dangerous.

I am having the same problem. This stuff works but I cannot get insurance. I have to risk my life to stay from failing school/college. However, I'm super afraid that ill never be able to get on suboxone. I will die using hard stuff because they make it for only those that can afford it. Don't they know anyone using or would use subs are already on stuff. It's a life saver.
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Unread 12-10-2012, 01:29 AM   #1328
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There are some free medication programs out there. Send a message to Nancy and see if she can help you with the information on them. ...... & I know how tough it can be, but, keep your current use at the lowest use possible in the mean time. It's very hard, but, we can taper our use down even when in active addiction. Please no matter what, don't give up, answers do come.
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Unread 12-10-2012, 06:34 AM   #1329
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manohealing, please see your thread for links and phone numbers:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=28222

Nancy
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Unread 12-22-2012, 04:52 AM   #1330
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Manohealing
It is very hard to get started but once your in the program it is way cheaper then any street drug. The only way i was able to get on them is i called all kind of docs till i found the cheapest the i left him and got with a doctor whos monthly visits were cheaper. It can be done. Just hang in there
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Unread 02-18-2013, 04:51 PM   #1331
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I have been on suboxone for 10 months and now I'm beginning to taper off. I was nervous at first but it wasn't so bad. I'm on ma way to the finish line that's how I look at it... I ld have never thought my life would be changed so much in just a short period of time. I'm gotten married and bought a house. I just wanna say thank you suboxone.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 08:38 AM   #1332
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Congratulations 24, stay focused on living life and enjoying each, seeking out the good in each.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 09:51 AM   #1333
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I have been to multiple rehabs, 12 step programs, meetings, etc. While all of these help a great deal, the only thing that has resulted in long term success is combining them with Buprenorphine treatment. For me they did not work seperately. Since combining them, I have been able to regain my life again.
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Unread 09-17-2013, 09:10 PM   #1334
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I have got to agree subs are a true life changing miracle
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Unread 10-24-2013, 04:01 PM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sub-Zero View Post
......
Ps. I was on bupe for 7 years and tapered off without much trouble years ago.
man idk if this is appropriate to be saying in here. some of us have a very hard time quitting subs or tapering them.

im one of those.

i was also offended by your response.... but we are all human so no need in anymore bickering about it.

how exactly did u taper if u dont mind me asking?
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Unread 04-10-2014, 06:57 PM   #1336
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Quote:
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I have got to agree subs are a true life changing miracle
I totally agree. If it wasn't for Suboxone I probably wouldn't be alive!!
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Unread 04-10-2014, 06:58 PM   #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbrandnew24 View Post
I have been on suboxone for 10 months and now I'm beginning to taper off. I was nervous at first but it wasn't so bad. I'm on ma way to the finish line that's how I look at it... I ld have never thought my life would be changed so much in just a short period of time. I'm gotten married and bought a house. I just wanna say thank you suboxone.
Congrats!!
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Unread 04-10-2014, 07:06 PM   #1338
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Post moved to new thread for better visibility:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=29367
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Unread 05-12-2014, 08:01 PM   #1339
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Default how do I have to wait before taking suboxen if im taking 10 to 15 norco a day

Hello, everyone. I am new to this site and im on 1/4 strip.of sub a day after kicking h for 3 days some people tell me that what im takeing is just like doing h even tho I.dont feel that way. Besides that I.have a friend that desperately wants off his 10-15 norco a day habit but hes scared.to take the subs to soon. Does anyone know how long he should wait? I.tild him 24hrs but hes not sure if he can wait that long. Can anyone help me?
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Unread 05-12-2014, 08:20 PM   #1340
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As for Norco, usually 12 hours if suffice. I waited 12 hours and was fine. As for subs being like H, wrong. You don't chase the high, you get your life together and that is the difference. People fear what they don't understand. Peace. Julie
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Unread 09-03-2014, 07:00 PM   #1341
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Exclamation HELP!! My doc is out of town - no refill for a week!

Hi there! I am truly hoping that someone can help!!

I recently started on Zubsolv 5.7/1.4 (similar to Suboxone - just a different brand name/formulation.) I've been an opiate addict for about 3 years; a very HEAVY user for the past year or so. I am prescribed to take ONE 5.7/1.4 Zubsolv 2X per day.

I called my doctor's office to request he fax my refill to my pharmacy tomorrow, and I was informed that he is out of the office until next week. (BUT, I am out of my medication TODAY!!) The office staff stated that my doctor is the only provider in their office license to prescribe that medication! So now I am left with NOTHING!!!

The office staff there suggested I try to go to the ER, and see if maybe they can help me! To see if they can help (if they even have a l licensed doctor there.) :-( I am freaking out! The last thing I need right now is to be going through withdrawal! PLEASE HELP!!
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Unread 09-03-2014, 07:28 PM   #1342
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Hi seekingsaving, sorry to hear what's going on. Have you tried to find another doctor in your area? This link has different ways.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21259

Do you have a doctor you see regularly, like a primary care or psychiatrist or any doctor who can prescribe? If you do, a doctor can dispense buprenorphine for 3 days without being certified. This explains it:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/three-day-rule.pdf
You could also see if they would do that for you at the ER.

Fingers crossed you find a doctor to help.

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Unread 09-03-2014, 07:36 PM   #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi seekingsaving, sorry to hear what's going on. Have you tried to find another doctor in your area? This link has different ways.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21259

Do you have a doctor you see regularly, like a primary care or psychiatrist or any doctor who can prescribe? If you do, a doctor can dispense buprenorphine for 3 days without being certified. This explains it:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/three-day-rule.pdf
You could also see if they would do that for you at the ER.

Fingers crossed you find a doctor to help.

Nancy
Thank you soooo much for the quick reply Nancy! I appreciate that so very much! Is the "3 day" thing something that is applicable in ALL states? (I live in WA.) I have never heard of it before, which is why I am asking. Yes, I do have a regular doctor, but he is currently out of town for the next week, and he's the only certified prescribing doctor in that office! :-( And the front office staff informed me that there is no one else there that can refill my script. :-) Not sure what to do right now, I am freaking out! :-(
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Unread 09-03-2014, 08:15 PM   #1344
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Hi again, yes, that 3-day rule is for every state. That stinks that your bupe doctor is the only doctor you see. I was hoping that you had another one - even not certified - and s/he could help with the 3-day rule or even prescribing some off-label for pain (any doctor can prescribe for pain even if they're not certified, it has to be clearly marked for pain and addiction not mentioned on the prescription). Link to a DEA letter explaining it:
http://www.naabt.org/links/DEA_Bup_for_pain_letter.pdf

If you've been taking 2 a day, with the long halflife, you may not feel too badly for a couple of days. A lot of people at that dose, have said it takes 3 days or so to feel crappy because of the amount of bupe in the system. I hope it's that way for you - at least give you a little breathing room while you to try find another doctor who will help.

Nancy
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Unread 10-05-2014, 10:34 PM   #1345
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Default your rite

Quote:
Originally Posted by julie48 View Post
As for Norco, usually 12 hours if suffice. I waited 12 hours and was fine. As for subs being like H, wrong. You don't chase the high, you get your life together and that is the difference. People fear what they don't understand. Peace. Julie
People are scared at the first suboxone visit. They are afraid it wont work. It does. 100% . You just have to be willing to not getting high anymore
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Unread 07-14-2015, 01:18 PM   #1346
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Does anyone know what the cost is for zubsolv or suboxne strips Dr can't prescribe buprenorphie anymore
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Unread 07-14-2015, 04:32 PM   #1347
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Quote:
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Does anyone know what the cost is for zubsolv or suboxne strips Dr can't prescribe buprenorphie anymore
Hi dreamy, the best thing to do is to call around to a few difference pharmacies to see what the prices are. Sometimes pharmacies in the same chain will have different prices, depending on where they are.

You could try this site, but definitely confirm prices as I don't know how accurate/up to date the site is.
http://www.goodrx.com/?gclid=CJzPwMS728YCFVGAaQod3GoBBA

Here are links to the manufacturer's free med and discount programs.
Suboxone free meds: http://www.needymeds.org/drug_list.t...&name=Suboxone
Suboxone discount card: http://www.suboxone.com/treatment-pl...-card?cid=subx

Zubsolv free meds: http://www.needymeds.org/brand-drug/name/Zubsolv
Zubsolv discount card: https://www.zubsolv.com/zubsolv/patient-savings/

Bunavail free meds: I couldn't find a free med program.
Bunavail discount card: https://webrebate.trialcard.com/coupon/bunavailportal/

If you don't have prescription insurance or insurance, talk with your doctor to see if s/he can help you get free meds from either Suboxone or Zubsolv.

Hope that helps.

Nancy
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Unread 03-07-2016, 10:40 AM   #1348
mminvi1
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As a person in recovery for the past 10 years, I have to always remind myself of the first step-- admitting that I am powerless over drugs and alcohol. My biggest problem is believing that I am recovered and thinking I don't have to work as hard anymore. The reality is that I could easily still fall back to my old ways if I don't continue on the road to recovery. I still have to attend meetings and avoid the triggers that I have been avoiding since day one. It is difficult to maintain this dedication with all the other daily stresses in life but it is necessary to staying sober.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 11:55 AM   #1349
Sam Bailey
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Hey Mminvi1!

Welcome to the AS site. I see that you have a few posts, though I don't recall reading any of them. No biggie. Just glad you're here. Among the many different Recovery Sites/Places, AS is, by far, one of the best. Oh heck, probably is the best. Ha!

You actually sound good, and your program sounds solid. Truth is, as I'm sure you know, it's not always easy. In my experience, though, it does get easier...and, for example, those triggers you mentioned, while sometimes still a challenge, are often not even recognized. Only in retrospect are they even recalled.

However, regular vigilance to our sobriety is necessary if we want to insure the Good Life we've successfully created for ourselves and for the people we love.

See, in my opinion, staying sober is not the actual goal to having a good life. It's having that Good Life that is the goal. Yet the only way I can have such a good life is to remain dedicated to a sober existence.

I realize that what I just wrote sounds a little goofy. And, heck, it probably is. Yet my goal is not to not drink or use,. My goal is to live a meaningful and purposeful life. But the only way I can led such a life is to.....not drink or use. Right, it means staying clean and sober.

In the end, I reckon it's all the same. Thing is, booze and dope were never my main problem, I was my main problem. Today though, I am the solution to all my problems, me and my Higher Power.

And as long as I can count on me and my HP, I don't worry about staying sober. My vigilance is still there, that's for certain. It's just pointed in a slightly different direction. These days, that is.

Sheesh, I do hope this made some sense. If not, please blame this woman here named Nancy. Ha!

Please friend, stick around.

best,

sam b
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Unread 03-16-2016, 10:09 PM   #1350
robbdawg30
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So true we have came to far to just fall behind ..I know we gotta rember we took a step to better ourselves and its out there but nothing compares to the free felling I have and knowing I'm living free and honest is awsome ....keep up the good work....
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