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Unread 03-19-2009, 12:47 PM   #1
TIM
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Default 5 Mistakes People Make

5 Mistakes People Make

  • Not learning the difference between physical dependence and addiction- this leads to not understanding the treatment and makes it impossible to make informed decisions or measure outcome. In short, physical dependence is normal and expected and not a reason for treatment, it means you have withdrawal if you stop the medication abruptly, many medications do this. Addiction is an uncontrollable compulsion, that ruins lives, it is the result of abnormal brain adaptations and is a disorder. Treatments are aimed at addiction, not physical dependence. Once most patients stabilize on buprenorphine, the addiction quickly goes into remission while the physical dependence is simply maintained. http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...51&postcount=1

  • Ending treatment too soon- buprenorphine makes people feel normal and it is easy to forget how controlling the compulsion of addiction was. Patients feel like they are better and in control and don’t make the changes in their lives needed for the medication free stage of treatment. They discontinue treatment before the brain adaptations have been reversed. http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...d.php?p=198834

  • Measuring success by what happens when treatment is stopped- Imagine if you were taking a medication for chronic asthma, and it was working, then you stopped the medication and symptoms returned, you would see that as evidence that the medication was effective. With addiction some people do the opposite, When they stop the medication and symptoms of addiction return, they take that as evidence the medication was a failure. Ending the dangerous compulsive behavior of addiction is success, whether it requires medication or not. Measure success by whether or not the compulsive behavior has ended. http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...23&postcount=1

  • Obsessing about being on an opioid- Some peer support groups urge people to end treatment prematurely by instilling guilt, insisting that a person must be free of all medications to reach the status of “clean”. Abstaining from all medications including helpful ones is a misguided position. Being “clean” isn’t important, being “addiction free” is what matters. It is the compulsive behavior of addiction that is bad, not taking a pill. Some of these groups have demonized drugs categorically, making no distinction between helpful drugs and dangerous drugs. This view is dangerous because it can prompt people to discontinue treatment too soon and risk relapse. Drugs/medications are not the enemy addiction is.

  • Not making changes- The medication only sets the stage for a recovery by reducing cravings and withdrawal making it possible to do the real work, which is making positive changes in your life that will establish new patterns of behavior and reduce the risk of relapse in the future. Making positive changes that reduce stress, anxiety, and depression and retraining the brain so the reflex reaction to those emotions is not to reach for drugs. It is this rewiring that will make long term addiction remission possible.
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 03-19-2009, 01:09 PM   #2
jdjk
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Tim,
Very important post - should be made a sticky.
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Unread 03-19-2009, 05:08 PM   #3
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I haven't made one of these yet. Hopefully i won't. My day will come to take off the training wheels (sub), but til' then, it's nice to enjoy the ride of life without crashing the bike.
Heath.
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Unread 03-20-2009, 02:16 AM   #4
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Way cool!

We sadly still need a simple sticky post like this too inform the ignorant. Why can't they just understand these simple ideas?

Glen
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Unread 03-20-2009, 06:54 AM   #5
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#6 Judging their success/or not ....... or setting up thier program based on the eperience which others have had.

IMO of course.

Great thread Tim! Thank you!

Mike
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Unread 03-20-2009, 06:57 AM   #6
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jdjk, Heath and Glen, very good comments each. I could not agree more with each of you.

Thank you!

Mike
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Unread 03-20-2009, 10:50 AM   #7
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I got another one. Obsessing about the whole process. Especially the tapering gig. IMO, the less you think about it, the less you think about. Profound, isn't it. But like when people get all wrapped in every little detail of what they're feeling, how they're feeling and all that, it can turn it into a labor-intensive process instead of just going on with life.

My $0.01 (not worth as much these days....) -Mary
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Unread 03-20-2009, 01:49 PM   #8
onceagainskumshine
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Good thread, Tim.
So many things need to be factored in, it's good to see them put to their finest point.
I just woke up, so I'll explain all the things I love about this post soon.
The one thing that's been hit on twice in this thread is obsession.
I couldn't agree more.
Mary, I feel the same way re: taper. I'm going to post in the other taper thread about the phone call with my Sub Dr I just had. He's so understanding and incredible, I'm lucky to have a doctor like him.
More on that soon, too.
You are dead on: "The less you think about it, the less you think about it." Exactly.
I know it may seem simple, and that's why it works; simplicity is the key to me doing this succesfully.

Not worrying about the why's or whats of it all has opened me up to a new level of self understanding leading to an elevated level of self-care.
Dropping the right and wrong of it all has made this taper a natural process, one that may or may not be a final thing. I can't know that yet. All I can do is move forward until my body says hold up hold up hold up.

I think that may be another thing people do inconsistenly, to not trust their body to let them know whats going on, and further allowing their brain to blow it all up into something it's not, eg slight histamine flow that anyone with allergies gets turns into full on WD.
And I don't believe it to be only mental. The physical manifestation of thoughts is something very real to me.I believe that when we allow our brains to take the lead over our bodies/metabolisms and don't listen, the brain creates an actual physical reality of a WD that it may remember from times past. Your brain tells you you feel unwell and if you go with it, eventually, you will feel unwell.
I just feel really lucky, folks.
Today is going to be a great day.

best,
skum
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Unread 03-20-2009, 04:07 PM   #9
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Thanks for the positive responses! I'm glad to see not many people here are making those mistakes. These are all easy mistakes to make and most would be the natural thing to do without knowing why it's detrimental. But whenever they are made the outcome isn't as good.
Tim
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 03-21-2009, 12:13 AM   #10
theswan
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Oh Mary a penny for your thoughts!

Just kidding. I needed to hera what you said. I just dropped 4mg and then today another 2mg so i'm down from 16mg to 10mg. Still a lot but will get there and will not spend a lot of time thinking about it. I am jsut concerned thats all and I like chatting here online as outdoor stuff is notin full swing. Once i start fishing my time will be less online.

Peace be with you

Glen
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Unread 03-21-2009, 02:42 AM   #11
Done
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary View Post
I got another one. Obsessing about the whole process. Especially the tapering gig. IMO, the less you think about it, the less you think about. Profound, isn't it. But like when people get all wrapped in every little detail of what they're feeling, how they're feeling and all that, it can turn it into a labor-intensive process instead of just going on with life.

My $0.01 (not worth as much these days....) -Mary

I totally agree. We are so happy about the success that its hard to "just" make it "part of the day"....i wanted to yell, I am only taking ~1mg a day.

I know not to rush it, and just get used to it, until your forgetting it.......I also take sl vit b, so i am hoping that will help with the "mental~melting"
IOW...did i take the vit b or was it sub?

Great advice from everyone...Thank You!!!
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Unread 03-22-2009, 11:57 AM   #12
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Thank You, I'm still very new here and this helps! Yes it is very very tricky even after 2 weeks my brain tries to trick me by saying, oh you're all better now you can go down or don't need this stuff. Fact is all though I do not 'feel' it 'doing' anything I know it is, suboxone I call it a 'smartdrug' Like some nano tech lazer guided miracle cure for those of us who have tried detox after detox rehab after rehab pg after pg. etc... Finally a compassionate prescription for a huge # of people who could benefit greatly. Support , timing , being ready to want a major change , etc... By the way hello glen I'm also a fisherman , Just curious how do you think suboxone will effect ya at sea. I know When I was on methadone I could go out in a noreastern a smile and giggle in 12t seas. I wonder now if i'd be the guy over the rail ? I agree don't get caught up in a mg race or taper pride some have permanent Pain from accidents some need 'something' for a while. It can Erk you although I'm really happy for all the folks who are on 0.00.08 mg remember the newcomer me In the 2 weeks on subs now I've changed my dose 3 times thinking "I don't need that much, I don't feel it anyway" Listening to too much Advice, Then I listened to the less is more theory and tried that a few days oops, less wasn't more for me It's taken me 12 yrs to get here, and Well, thanks for the "Less you think about it" - The Less You Think About It" thing I try to FORGET often! I do have to stick to my doctors plans and give me time to get strong. All I'm saying is I see how easy it is with suboxone to think it's almost non-existant when we start to feel 'normal' is when the reasons we used or abused awaken for some. Just happy there's advice and a place for me here. p.s. #'s don't mean Sh* It's how we live on a day to day basis Do I get my job Done, Will I help someone in need, Is Family always first. I threw out all my old coins from NA I've built Buildings and watched them crumble. #'s just really mess with my head. Having to start over again after some yrs clean really pours guilt over me often, Thanks For reminding Me, Priority 1 Deal with those Demons Before I go back to trying another #'s of years clean, or a suboxone Taper or or or. Thanks for the post I'm going back to re-read and click on them all. {Paddy NOt too IgNorAnT "\This whole place e'll be a Lake in 2 weeks"/" banjopaddy Thank You for the 5 Reminders I needed to see it today!

Last edited by paddy; 03-22-2009 at 12:07 PM..
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Unread 03-22-2009, 07:52 PM   #13
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I have been on 16mg for 4 months, and yes I think the "brain" plays a big part. When I first came here, after I had actually started Suboxone, I started getting worried right away about how I was gonna come off, if my dose was to hi, etc.

Then I remembered what I read on how to use this site, and (I) took away from the info, that yes I could get to obsessed with the site and what other people say. You must be responsibe about using this site, and I so appreciate all the info and different experiences and try to learn something, but I have to remind myself sometimes, that my recovery will be individual to me, and how fast or slow it happens will depend on me and my body.

I thank everyone for their taper expereience, and think I am about to start mine, I will ask my doctor tomorrow. I think my brain is ready and my body. I had always felt great all day every day lots of energy and now I am starting to get pretty drowsy about 4:30, so I am thinking that my body is telling me, its time to reduce. If my drop doesn't work out (I think it will) I'm not really gonna think about it, I would just go back up and not feel like a failure at all.
So I must say I so agree with all of you, I think the less we think about the medication part, listen to our bodies/brain the better we will do.
Vhappy
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Unread 07-11-2009, 03:07 PM   #14
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This is a FANTASTIC break-down of comprehensive addiction treatment!!! THANK YOU! xoxo
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Unread 07-11-2009, 09:03 PM   #15
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This is the first time I've read this thread! WOW!! I've noticed some things about myself contained in there that I need to work on. Very helpful and also thought provoking information

Thank You, Tim!!

*~Janel~*
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Unread 08-22-2009, 02:10 PM   #16
NAMA Recovery angel
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Again, good stuff Tim! Angel
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Unread 09-06-2009, 11:58 AM   #17
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First of all im not ignorant and i do understand the differences between addictin and dependence but it dont think it should be said sub is not addictive because depending on the person it can be addictive.

As far as a person being on sub for a long time even in some situations life i agree that may be apropiate,,depending on the person and what the alternatives might be if they didnt take sub.

TT
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Unread 09-11-2009, 01:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by So.Cal. View Post
First of all im not ignorant and i do understand the differences between addictin and dependence but it dont think it should be said sub is not addictive because depending on the person it can be addictive....
That's right. That point is addressed in detail in this FAQ

Is buprenorphine addictive?

Although there is the potential for addiction to buprenorphine, the risk is low. Few people develop the dangerous uncontrollable compulsion to buprenorphine that we know as addiction. Buprenorphine will maintain some of a patient's existing physical dependence to opioids but that is manageable and eventually resolved with a gradual taper once the patient is ready.

Amazingly despite 100% of people being treated for addiction with buprenorphine have demonstrated that they have a greater vulnerability to opioid addiction than the average person, very few become addicted to the buprenorphine, meaning very few lose control of their medication intake, nor experience uncontrollable compulsions and cravings toward the buprenorphine.

People can become addicted to anything that causes pleasure; consider gambling, sex, food, and internet. There is even a condition where patients drink so much water they dilute their blood, causing some level of intoxication (hyponatremia). They are addicted to this behavior, although water is not considered addictive. Substances and activities all have some potential addiction liability. Many factors including genetics and environment contribute to someone’s potential of becoming addicted

The brain has a natural reward system that helps us to learn that things that cause pleasure are good and should be repeated. This helps our species survive by reinforcing the desire for food and sex. These activities initiate a biochemical sequence and release dopamine in the brain. This feels good and is reinforced when repeated. Some substances can trick the brain and initiate the same biochemical sequence, but to a greater and unnatural degree. The brain senses this activity as the most pleasurable and hence the most necessary for survival, and creates a memory of the activity and cravings for more. The cycle reinforces itself and can lead to addiction (uncontrollable dangerous compulsive behavior)
Research has shown that substances that reach the brain faster have a higher potential for addiction. Also substances that provide a stronger effect cause more reinforcement. This begins a cycle of euphoria then craving then euphoria, craving and so on. Each time the cycle completes it reinforces a memory in the brain, the more frequent the cycle the more reinforcing.
The potential for addiction has to do with 3 main things, the speed of the onset, the level of reinforcement (pleasure), and the duration of action. IV heroin, is fast acting, strong euphoria, short duration. This gives it a high potential for addiction. Drugs with short intense cycles provide more potential for addiction than drugs with long “flatter” cycles.

Buprenorphine has a slow onset, mild effect, and long duration, which puts it at some risk of being addictive, more than water, but less than full agonist opioids, like heroin, morphine, oxycodone, and hydrocodone.
In countries where only Subutex is available (buprenorphine without the naloxone safeguard added), some people have injected their buprenorphine, thus decreasing the onset time and increasing euphoria, this in turn increased the potential for addiction and thus more people became addicted to it. The risk of addiction is less when taken sublingually as directed.


Further reading: Drug delivery methods, ranking addiction potential.
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 09-17-2009, 07:24 AM   #19
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Very useful. yes i have fallen into the trap of coming off the bup too fast. Going slower this time.
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Unread 11-24-2009, 04:29 AM   #20
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very helpful sticky. Thanks for posting it. After reading it, I started on some changes. My sister and I agreed to switch phones so that the dealers I used to buy from will have no way of getting in touch with me. She will not answer any number that she doesn't recognize. If anyone dares to come to my house, I simply will not answer the door. If it is a friend of mine, they will call and say they are at the door. During my last treatment, I made the mistake of keeping two of them in my phone because I foolishly thought they were friends. During my relapse last week, I saw these "friends" for who they really are.

The smile on her face when she told me she was all out spoke volumes. She didn't care about me, just the money. I knew I was seeing the doctor in two days, but the withdrawals were hurting pretty bad. I told her," Wow, that sucks. I was willing to pay you 7.00 per pill and buy at least 20 of them." She had sold them for only 3.50 a piece, so she had to have realized she just lost over 60.00!

Well, THAT wiped the smile off her face! She said," Oh, I can get them back if you're that desperate." I told her," Nah, it's all good. I was only trying to get them now because after today, I won't be getting them again." I said this to let her know that her meal ticket was now gone. With me, she had a guaranteed sale of at least 200.00 a month. Now, that is gone. Was it wrong that I enjoyed the panic in her eyes when she realized she had lost a loyal customer? Would you believe she was so desperate that she called my phone WHILE I was in the doctor's office? LOL, now it's her turn to stress out about pills.
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Unread 12-28-2009, 12:39 PM   #21
So.Cal.
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I juwst posted this on another of your threads. i know my feelings are in the minority here,,,but it is what it is and i still feel compelled to speak about how i feel about some things about sub. im not knocking it,,,as a matter of fact im going on my 6th year of sub,,i just dont agree with the way you use a different termonology to make it sound better,,below is what i posted on your other thread,,,am i a pain in the butt or do you just consider me unable to understand what you are trying to say.

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Hey tim,,,

you may have made some good points but some are in my opinion incorrect. you use the term acute wd's and dependence over addiction. It seems you just dont wanna believe some of the things reported about this drug.acute wd or dependence ,,,the terminology makes no difference to the person going through wd. Now if a patient has their bottle of pills and takes them correctly you can call that physical dependence,,,,but what about if that person didnt follow instructions and ran out of their meds early. what do you think will happen,,,i ll tell ya,,,they will resort to old behavior and get whatever it takes to get out of wd's. and that is addiction my friend. It all depends on the patient whether or not they are dependent or addicted and how they use their drugs,,,,i know its hard for someone like you who hasnt ever felt the horrible feelings of wd but if you had you would understand a little better instead of using termonology to cover up the fact that some patients are addicted to sub. now i know weve clashed over this for years but weve done it respectfully and i hope we can continue to do that even though we both feel we are right.
TT
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Unread 12-28-2009, 01:59 PM   #22
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TT,

I’m not entirely sure what you are saying but I’ll try and clarify some definitions.
Acute withdrawal: Withdrawal symptoms that occur rapidly and are intense.

Physical dependence: Normal physiologic state of adaptation to a substance, the absence of which produces symptoms and signs of withdrawal.

Addiction: A behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, and a need for an increased amount of the substance, as time goes on, to achieve the same effect.

pseudoaddiction: Behavioral changes in patients that seem similar to those in patients with addiction but are secondary to inadequate pain control.
As far as someone becoming addicted to buprenorphine, I explain that it is possible but unlikely in a few posts above. http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...9&postcount=18


You say: “…but what about if that person didnt follow instructions and ran out of their meds early. what do you think will happen,,,i ll tell ya,,,they will resort to old behavior and get whatever it takes to get out of wd's. and that is addiction my friend.

I don’t disagree, certainly if someone stops taking a medication that suppresses the signs and symptoms of addiction, symptoms can reemerge. Buprenorphine isn’t a cure for addiction and it shouldn’t be expected that if you stop taking it that it will continue to work. However, the addiction preexisted the treatment and isn’t caused by it.

Although such behavior is commonly addiction it isn’t always, it’s could be pseudoaddiction, which isn’t addiction at all. It happens with pain patients who are being undertreated for pain. In an effort to reduce the pain, or in your example the withdrawal, patients exhibit addiction-like behaviors. However this is not addiction in the disease sense because these behaviors are motivated by other things than the brain changes that cause addiction. Doctors are trained to not misinterpret these symptoms for addiction and instead make sure the patient is receiving an adequate uninterrupted dose.

We’ve discussed this before and it comes down to the same thing. You must understand the difference between physical dependence and addiction before you can understand why patients stable on buprenorphine are not addicted. It's the #1 mistake people make, listed above, and this is exactly why everyone should learn it. Otherwise, understanding addiction treatment with medication will be frustratingly confusing. This link explains it: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...51&postcount=1


I hope that helps, please read it.
Tim
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Unread 01-12-2010, 11:49 PM   #23
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Thank You for this thread. I'm so having the guilt of taking Sub. Thinking that I'm not totally clean because I'm still taking a medication and, at this point of time, I'm finding it hard tapering down to 2mg a day instead of 3mg a day (as directed by my doc). My doc wants me totally off of it in a few of months and I have to say it is scaring me. That will be my 2yr anniversary and I don't think I'm ready but my doc says he wants to see me off of it. I know I have to stop obsessing over the guilt but it doesn't help when I watch "Celebrity Rehab" and Dr Drew tells someone "no suboxone is allowed in the center".
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Unread 01-13-2010, 08:36 AM   #24
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Hi talk2me, find another doctor! No patient should be forced to taper off a MEDICATION before they are ready.

Please change your thinking, Dr. Drew doesn't know a thing about Suboxone, he's an old school, abstinent-only type doctor who has not kept up with medical science - which is good for his type of business. After all, where would the drama be if a patient took Suboxone, went to therapy and got on with his/her life? Look at his return patients who just can't handle the cravings and relapse and go back to rehab or worse, overdose.

Please read this FAQ:
Is buprenorphine treatment just switching one addiction for another?
http://www.naabt.org/faqs.cfm

Taking a medication as prescribed should be nothing to feel guilty about. That is not damaging. What IS damaging is the uncontrollable compulsive behavior despite negative consequences which is addiction.

This is a good thread:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=12478

I won't inundate you with a lot of reading right now.
Please let me know what you think after reading those items though please.

Nancy
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Unread 01-14-2010, 11:08 PM   #25
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Thank you NancyB. I read the items and they helped alot. I thought all night about some of the things I read and I woke up today feeling alot better about my situation. I think the main reason I'm feeling guilty is because my doc, from my 2nd visit, has talked about me getting off of the sub. and I feel that I'm failing because I'm not off of it like he had hoped. I have to start listening to my body and if it is telling me I'm not ready than I'm not. I'm not going to risk relapsing because my doc is rushing me! Thank you sooo much
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Unread 01-23-2010, 06:05 AM   #26
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This is the first thing i read on this website and the first post i am posting. Today, i had to let my sponsor go as he was at 25+ years of sobriety, not cutting me any slack. I'll explain. Short version...
About 17 years ago i found opiates after having a knee surgery and although i had a full leg brace on, man was i happy! From there began the nearly two decade struggle i've had with opiate painkillers. Some years back, after being taken by ambulance to the ER for a near fatal OD i started AA/NA/PA and got three years clean. That last year was harder than the first two, the cravings had returned, i was so depressed, well, i guess everyone knows. I found a doc who prescribed Suboxone and for some time it was working really well for me. However, it became clear to me that since i was taking an opiate i was not "clean" and therefore after much discussion and obsessing, i dropped AA. I've been on Subutex for ten years now. While i admit its better than all the other pills i'd taken it is NOT, not for me, a drug that i consider myself clean on, unfortunately. I wish i could say i was clean but i can't. I'd taken up to 56mg a day generally was taking 24-32mg a day for most of those years and the last few months have been able to taper it down to 8mg a day. I've not been able to drop under 8 for over a month now and today my sponsor really laid into me so, i dropped him. I've also found myself avoiding the meetings these past few days as in their, same stuff, nobody gets this drug and honestly, i don't get it either. I don't get how your only having "physical dependance" and not addiction? Comon! Is there really a difference? It is easier to control, slightly easier, than the other pills, that is true. But, sadly, for me, i cannot say i am clean and therefore remain in a very bad place mentally. Curious what others here have to say about this? Especially from others that have taken it long term over years? Don't mean to sound super negative first time writing but well, it's really been a struggle. I even checked into ReHab about one year ago. 30 days in Rehab and they weren't able to taper me off completely, i got down to 2mg, the dreaded twos!!! After one week outta rehab and many thousands of dollars later i was back up to 32mg until a few months ago when i started back with AA. I was ok being at zero days clean for a long time but that gets old, i started counting clean days when i got to 8mg a day but have had several people point out i'm still taking my drug of choice, which is true. Wish i had a happy ending for this long time struggle, maybe one day i will.
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Unread 01-23-2010, 06:45 AM   #27
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Good morning MrSystems! Well, first off let me say I am glad you posted on here looking for answers as you try to figure things out for yourself.

Yes, there is a huge difference between being physically dependent and addicted. There is an entire link that explains it better than I could do here. Addiction has to do with compulsive behavior, and not being able to control that. People are physically dependent on insulin but do not commit crimes in order to get their insulin. Yet they would suffer physically if the insulin was discontinued. People on anti-depressants are advised to taper off so as not to suffer from withdrawals, yet they were not addicted to their anti-depressants, just physically dependent. Anyway, I will attach the link that explains it.

Suboxone is a medication that is prescribed for a disease. AA and NA neither one should have any say so in what medications anyone is taking. IMO it is quite unfortunate that some "old-timers" in those organizations believe they have the right to determine what kind of medical treatment anyone receives. They are not doctors, nor do they have any right to even ask about people's personal medical conditions. That is not the purpose of AA or NA. Another thing that irritates me is their terminology and insisting on using the term, "clean". I am going to attach another link about the words we use and why they matter, as well as copy a part of a statement that one of our members, Suture, wrote about this.

All of this being said, I wonder if you have received any counseling or therapy while you have been taking the subutex. Subutex/Suboxone is only designed to stop the cravings and withdrawals which allows one the opportunity to figure out the reasons one had uncontrollable behavior with medications. It sounds as though you are still having difficulty contolling your subutex and until you address the reasons for that you will continue to be confused and unsettled about it all. Suboxone/Subutex have a ceiling-so when you take those excessive amounts it does nothing except make your constipation worse, etc.

I am glad you found our site and please take the opportunity to read through the educational material that is provided here. I think once you find out facts about suboxone you will be better equipped to move forward. One's goal should not be to taper off the medicine but rather to live an addiction-free life. It seems like you are hung up on the fact that you are taking a medication-and that sure could be your stumbling block. I take daily medication for my high cholesterol, and will take it for the rest of my life-so what? If I don't take it I might end up with a heart attack and die-so for me it is necessary-I don't think of myself as being "unclean", in fact, I do not think a thing about taking my little pill every night before I go to bed. If you could get your mind to that point with suboxone you would probably find a happy ending.

Just my thoughts and opinions, best wishes,

Nan
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=15
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=17923
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=1

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http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...cons/icon1.gif Here's the answer to the NA "clean" argument
The more difficult path is not necessarily the more righteous one.

Just because one method is less difficult doesn’t mean it is wrong, cheating, or less worthy. Technology continually offers new ways for us to achieve things, including treating addiction disorders.

I understand that some people who have suffered through cravings, withdrawal, relationships, thousands of 12 step meetings, and have successfully earned the title of clean”, may feel their status is somehow diminished by someone who has successfully stopped their addictive behavior with a medication and claims to be clean” as well. The problem though isn’t in the methods. Any way someone can put an addiction in remission is a successful method. The problem arises when trying to adapt self help language to a new method it was never intended for.

When the classifications of Clean/Dirty were created all opioid drugs were "bad” and would eventually lead to addiction if used by the "addict”. Since then the partial opioid agonist (buprenorphine) has evolved. This new medication cannot be classified so easily. It is both a blocker and an agonist. When the term was coined Clean” was seen as to be synonymous with addiction free”. Now someone can be on” a medication but still be addiction free” Debate over whether or not they have they right to be dubbed clean” is no longer relevant. Anyone can recognize there is a distinction between taking bupe every morning and obsessing over a DOC that eventually rules your life. But it doesn’t fit into the narrowly defined states of clean and dirty.

With the advent of the partial agonist opioid, "clean/dirty” have become outdated terms. The focus on is this person clean?” diverts attention from the real purpose of the support group. The question should be is this person "addiction free” for the addiction is what is bad and damaging not a classification of being, created by self help groups.

It is unlikely 12 step groups will change their terminology, for they are rich in tradition. I propose to avoid animosity from hardcore 12-steppers; that people on bupe maintenance refer to themselves as "addiction free” as opposed to "Clean”. It might also be better for one’s self esteem to correlate their status with a medical condition, rather than in degrees of filth.

S-

Last edited by nan; 01-23-2010 at 07:15 AM..
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Unread 01-23-2010, 07:17 AM   #28
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Hello, I found the literature on Language, the Words We Use Matter.

http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_Language.pdf

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Unread 01-23-2010, 10:06 AM   #29
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Hi MrSystems, welcome. Nan gave you a lot of reading to do! lol Hopefully it will help in your understanding of what addiction is - the uncontrollable, compulsive behavior despite negative consequences - not taking a medication as prescribed. Here's another good thread "Addiction Free" not "Drug Free" by Sarah
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=12478

Because of so many people having so many problems with the NA people not being accepting of medication-assisted treatment, many Suboxone patients go to AA instead, as the steps are the steps. Or if they go to NA, they don't mention that they take Suboxone. It's really nobody's business but the patient and his/her doctor what medications someone takes. Period. Addiction is a medical condition and getting medical help is not to be condemned. NA is peer support. Not medical treatment. No one should be practicing medicine on anyone there.

If you like working the steps, we have a "Steps without Stigma" forum here, and a 'chat' every Monday 8:30 pm to 10:30 pm Eastern time. Here's a link:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...splay.php?f=91

You mentioned that you've been taking Subutex for 10 years. Were you in a clinical study prior to the FDA approval of the medication in 2002? If so, did you receive counseling during those two years and was there anything different then if you were receiving counseling?

If you're having trouble controlling how much Suboxone you take, perhaps counseling might be helpful. Many people find that CBT is a big help with addiction treatment (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). The biggest reason people have problems tapering is that they're not ready. Not only was the endorphin system damaged with opioid addiction, but also the stop/go mechanism in the limbic system/old brain. Those pathways have to be rewired back to pre-addiction status which will help with a taper.
This is good explanation of addiction:
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/underst...addiction.html

I hope this is helpful. Again, welcome!

Nancy
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Unread 01-26-2010, 06:50 AM   #30
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Its very late and i need to get up early tomorrow (difficult for me) so i'll keep this short but I wanted to thank all those that posted your thoughtful replies! It is most appreciated! In the coming days i will be reading a lot more on this site, I'm very happy to have found it. Amazingly i've managed to be on this drug, agonize over it, for many years, yet have done next to no research on it, till now. Its clear to see I'm not the only one who struggles with whether or not taking this medication is a good thing, or not. As most of you have pointed out it will vary with the individual and how one choses to look at it. I hear loud and clear the perspective of being on a opiate, albeit an antagonist that doesn't give one the rush, as not being truly, clean, which is where i do want to be. Truth be told, i don't know if i'll ever be able to live without out since i've taken it so long in such high doses. Guess i was wrong on the date i started, must not have been till after 2002 because i was not part of a study but i do remember my doctor telling me i was amongst the first to take it here in the US. So, maybe, eight years i've been on it now, not so good with dates. Before that, i'd spent a number of years fighting a horrible and dangerous addiction with opiate painkillers. I'd gotten addicted and had no idea what was happening with me as i'd never heard of anyone (except maybe elvis and maryln) who had this peculiar dilemma, i truly thought for years that i was the only one. Now of course i realize that not only was i not alone but that this is an epidemic in our country. So yes, i've been at 8mg for nearly one month now and have not been able to drop it under that, not yet. It beats 56mg which did nothing except cost me a lot of money and energy and remorse. I guess what it boils down to for me is it isn't possible for me to consider myself clean while still taking the drug i've taken for eight years, Subutex. I am wondering if those here who are explaining this drug as simply continuing the physical dependance while not being addictive, are you or have you actually taken this drug and are you an opiate addict? I really agree with the guy above who said it sounds like using different terminology to "sound better." I wish I didn't see it that way but since i've lived this for so long, nearly a decade of my life, i know full well how addicting this substance is. Yes, because it doesn't give the big rush it is easier to control, the dosage doesn't need to climb so rapidly but believe me, the dosage can climb and the more you take the more you want to take and so on...its been really hard for me lately as i've recently moved to a new state, new city, making new friends in AA and i've met others who take this and nobody talks about it out loud at meetings for fear of persecution. It is certainly, controversial.
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Unread 01-26-2010, 06:54 AM   #31
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I've not read a lot of other posts yet so i'm guessing its been talked about but their is some great news with Subutex, its gone generic!!
I have another question, a second part of the question i asked previously to those here that are talking about Subs as a non addictive answer, are you working for the drug companies? Sounds like an obvious question but, i am curious. If yes or no, do you have first hand experience of actually taking the medication? Thanks and i'll take my answer off the air...;-)
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Unread 01-26-2010, 07:39 AM   #32
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Hi MrSystems. Ill give a short testimony to answer your question....September 16, 2008 was the day I got inducted on Suboxone. I was an OxyContin addict. I started out taking 32mg of suboxone a day, and presently am on a 2mg,1mg,2mg,1mg taper plan. I go to a counselor, and visit this website regularly to keep my addiction in remission. I DO NOT work for the drug company. I am a firm believer in the medication, because without it, back in Sept. of 2008, I never could have stopped Oxy on my own. This medicine is just one little tool to help me fix my life. Its up to each individual to work recovery, whichever way suits them best, and helps them make progress.

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Unread 01-26-2010, 01:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSystems View Post
I've not read a lot of other posts yet so i'm guessing its been talked about but their is some great news with Subutex, its gone generic!!
I have another question, a second part of the question i asked previously to those here that are talking about Subs as a non addictive answer, are you working for the drug companies? Sounds like an obvious question but, i am curious. If yes or no, do you have first hand experience of actually taking the medication? Thanks and i'll take my answer off the air...;-)
Hi MrSystems, I'm not a Suboxone patient, and I do not work for any drug company.

Most people do not become addicted to Suboxone. There are some that do, they continue the behavior that is addiction. The uncontrollable, compulsive behaviors despite negative circumstances. Physical dependence - experiencing withdrawals by abrupt cessation - happens with many substances, including, but not limited to caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, benzos, sugar, and some anti-depressants.

Most Suboxone patients end the uncontrollable, compulsive behavior once they start Suboxone treatment. And so many people decrease their dose as time goes on as they've made the necessary changes in their lives.

For those who continue the compulsive behavior with Suboxone, it usually indicates that nothing more is being done except for taking the medication. Therapy can help with learning how to control those behaviors which is the addiction.

How long were you at that incredibly high amount of 56mg of Suboxone? Were you prescribed that, or was that part of your addictive behavior, taking more? Buprenorphine has a ceiling effect, which is thought to average around 12mg. (Of course, with every average, there are the higher and lower ends that make up that average.) That ceiling effect means that there is no more effect received from taking more than the person's ceiling. Generally what happens is increased lethargy and constipation. That's why the best dose is the lowest one that stops cravings and withdrawals. Anything more is just wasted.

Are you doing, or have you in the last 8 years, done anything to address the addictive behaviors, such as therapy? CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is often used by patients with addiction disorders. It helps patients to recognize the addictive behaviors and work on changing them.

This is another good link on the differences between Addiction and Physical Dependence.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15332

I hope this is helpful.

Nancy
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Unread 01-26-2010, 03:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSystems View Post
..."Suboxone and for some time it was working really well for me. However, it became clear to me that since i was taking an opiate i was not "clean"...it is NOT, not for me, a drug that i consider myself clean on, unfortunately...I wish i could say i was clean but i can't...
This is why you shouldn't try to apply non-medical terms (clean) to modern addiction treatment. When "clean" was coined there were no good opioids that helped treat addiction like there are now, so all drugs were "bad" and clean meant addiction-free. But now we have drugs that help stop the addictive behavior, so stopping these drugs to be "clean" doesn't make any sense. Now someone can be addiction-free while taking an opioid medication. Being "clean" isn't important and is a distraction from what is important. Stopping the addictive behavior is what matters. If it takes a medication to accomplish this, that is still successful treatment.

Think of it in terms of another medical condition like diabetes. Suppose you needed insulin but felt you weren't "clean" while on it, and every time you tried and tapered off you got sick and had to go back on it. Sometimes with exercise and diet a person with type II diabetes can reach a point where they no longer need the insulin, but its not a matter of willpower it's a matter of making physical changes within the body. Addiction is similar in that to reach a point where addiction remission can be maintained without medication, physical changes have to happen in the brain, willpower won't do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSystems View Post
...I don't get how your only having "physical dependance" and not addiction? Comon! Is there really a difference?...
You'e not alone, many people don't get it and is why there are sites that are against buprenorphine, because you have to get it to understand medication-assisted treatment, otherwise its simply switching one addiction for another. Without understanding the difference you'll have no way to measure success, or know when or how to taper. The fact is physical dependence happens in a whole different part of the brain than addiction does and some addictions don't even have a physical dependence associated with them like cocaine or gambling. Once you understand the difference it all becomes clear, and you'll know why its not switching one addiction for another and you'll know why some people can taper off bupe easily while others struggle and wonder why. It's not your fault though; the language used in addiction medicine, support groups, and the drug war makes it very confusing, and some high-profit detox companies count on the ignorance to stay in business. The first post in this thread has links that explain it all in detail.

Tim
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Unread 01-27-2010, 06:30 AM   #35
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Again I am writing late at night when i "should" be sleeping, i need to get up early so this time I WILL keep this short...;-) Now i'm so curious as to how it is there are people here who haven't personally dealt with opiate addiction but are giving the advice? Something does feel very off about that, sorry but, thats just true. Anyone who hasn't experienced it first hand, well, its really like anything else in that way, i don't know what its like to be an eskimo, for instance. Not that the words and encouragement aren't appreciated, i just find it curious as in my life thus far the only one's i've ever known to get it are others who have lived it. That includes doctors who prescribe this stuff, i've had several over the years and usually i know more about it than they do. I've heard all they need to take to get their license to prescribe this is take a weekend course, anyone else heard anything about that? Not that that matters a lot, it doesn't. And yes, i've been in counseling, i've participated (on and off for the last few months on) in AA/PA and believe full well that all the positive things we must do for upkeep must be kept up every day, all day as this disease is very strong. Like i guess i'd mentioned in my first post, i'm at 8mg a day now, have been for nearing one month which is about the lowest i've ever been at since starting it. And no, i wasn't getting all 56mg from one doctor, i've never found a doc that would prescribe more than 24mg which is the "ceiling" magic number, according to the docs i've dealt with. So now, i'm targeting the end of the month to drop to four milligrams a day, it must be done because i want so badly to be done with this, to leave this behind me once and for all. Opiate addiction killed my brother, i know full well how deadly this disease truly is. And as long as i'm on even .05mg a day i know in my heart of hearts that i am not clean, no matter what anyone here says, no matter how nice the words sounds its still opiates and as long as i am taking them i don't believe my brain will begin to manufacturer its own natural opiates. scary. scary because i know i'm in for a long dark period, the return to the hollow man syndrome, its what i call it. there's no feeling so nasty in this world that i know of than the feeling of being without opiates and that is something that only other opiate addicts who have kicked know, sadly.
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Unread 01-27-2010, 09:16 AM   #36
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MrSystems, I am so sorry that you are not willing to give a thought to anything that is presented to you. You have a mindset and nothing, no amount of modern scientific evidence is going to change it. That is too bad, really is. Of course it is up to you whether you want to return to the hollow man syndrome, and the long dark period. Thing is, if you are doing ok right now with the .5 mg of suboxone I absolutely cannot understand why you would even contemplate giving up the medicine that makes you feel ok just so you can say you are "clean". Yay, I am not on any opiates but I am a hollow man, living in darkness and there is no feeling so nasty in this world-so this is what you are choosing?

If you do not believe drs can help if they never suffered from addiction then you probably feel the same way about therapists. Therefore, it sounds like you will continue on as you have for the last 8 years and not make any progress. Nothing we can say here is going to change your mindset as long as you keep it closed and refuse to read the education and scientific information that has developed over the last 8 years. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope for you because you did post on here so that means, just maybe, that you are questioning.

Medical treatment would be very limited if we all only choose doctors who have had the same illness or disease that we are suffering from. When one has a heart attack should they refuse treatment from any doctor who has not suffered a heart attack because that is something that only other heart attack sufferers can know? Should pregnant women only go to female doctors who have had children? And, no, addiction is no different than any other medical condition-it is treatable and can be put into remission. When I hear comments that no one can truly understand or advise or give medical advice if they haven't suffered from addiction my feathers get ruffled. I guess it falls into the category of "terminal uniqueness", and that will lead to nothing good.

I wish you well and I also would hope that you find the solutions that you are seeking.

Nan
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Unread 01-27-2010, 12:11 PM   #37
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MrSystems,
I can't add much to nan's great post except, If we only received care from people who were afflicted by the same condition, how would paraplegics ever get help?

Please consider just this one last thing, you've made 4 out of the 5 mistakes listed above and by your own account are miserable while many others on this site have not made those mistakes and are now living full lives, are happy, and are no longer a slave to addiction. Some require medication while others have tapered off years ago, either way they have stopped their addictive behaviors and have rebuilt relationships, regained trust, reengaged in their careers, and are now living much happier lives, not spending their time wrestling with 'am I clean'...don't you think there might be something to it?

It's not your fault, think about how you've been conditioned your whole life to think that all opiates are bad and you are 'dirty' if you take them. The 'War on Drugs', demonizes all drugs The 'Drug-free collation', 'Partnership for a drug-free America', and 'just say no to drugs', all demonize drugs. Years of being given this message has effectively brainwashed people into thinking that all drugs are bad and the people who take them are bad. Nowhere do they differentiate between bad drugs and the drugs that save lives, its just left up to the individual. Sometimes it is obvious as with penicillin or insulin, but sometimes its not so obvious and a little confusing with complicated drugs like buprenorphine, which is a partial agonist opioid, but can help save lives. You may not be able to see it now but your view that 'being clean' is what matters most is standing between you and a happy fulfilling life. Don't let your life, and maybe your death, be controlled by outdated propaganda. Reprioritize and figure out what really matters in your life, and you'll see that it's really addiction you want to stop, not simply drugs, and if a drug is required to end the addiction and the terrible consequences of addictive behavior, so what? It's not important.

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Unread 01-27-2010, 03:43 PM   #38
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Tim and Nan~
I just wrote you both another small novel but before i sent it or saved it i went to copy an email from my sponsor into the posting and when i came back it was all GONE! Drats! Oh well, i'll try to sum up what i'd already written. Sigh...
First, thank you both for caring enough to take the time to write, that in itself is very much appreciated! And second I was writing about how dearly i'd like to LOSE this little debate or perspective we are discussing as clearly I'd be the one to gain since i am on this drug, no? Yes! I want very much to feel OK about this needing a little medication perspective, but yes i've been living breathing AA/PA for years and that line of thinking has of course, sunk in. I've learned to just not mention it in meetings, as of late, its saved me a lot of grief i was before suffering whenever i'd mention i was taking Subs i'd get all sorts of negative feedback. Of course that was always from those that didn't know anything about it, personally. However, sometimes i'd find others like myself who either were taking it or still are taking it, in small doses, and struggling with the idea of whether or not they are clean, its tough. Its tough i think because recovery is so much based on honesty, looking back over what we've done and cleaning up wreckage, all that. My now Ex sponsor, well here, I'll copy his email he'd written to me which was a reply to an email i'd written him where i told him i need to find another sponsor because his tolerance of my being on Subs was, not there. He said:
"If you want to move on that is absolutely fine with me. There are no hard feelings at all. I hope your decision is not based solely on fears of getting clean and the advice of other junkies with the same fears, but that is up to you. In a two minute web search on subutex I found treatment programs for getting off addiction to it. I do not believe you are condemned to a life of opiate addiction. Thousands of long-term junkies have gotten clean and there is no reason you cannot. I am not an expert and have been hesitant to tell you how to go about it. But I do not believe the rationalization (in my opinion) that your brain chemistry has been so fundamentally altered that you cannot live without it now. There is just too much evidence to the contrary. One thing I can say is that if you decide to blow off AA, I am pretty confident things will get worse for you. My guess is that counseling, AA, a vibrant spiritual life, and perhaps a course of anti-depressants for some time will be sufficient for getting your life back. I realize all of that is scary, but I know that it would be well worth it if you would give it a try. It will always be easy to find people to rationalize why you should keep on those drugs. My guess is they fall into two categories: those that profit from it, and those that are addicted and also do not want to quit and are looking to justify their own rationalizations. Maybe the sponsorship thing did not work out for us. Every attempt is not the perfect match. That is for you to decide and seems you have made a decision for yourself. But I would encourage you to find a sponsor who can help you. Perhaps, find a recovering junky who can tell you how he got off opiates - completely. Anyway, I have no animosity at all for you, only concern. I wish you the best and am happy to remain as friends. There is probably somebody out there who can be a more affective sponsor for you. You are a good person deep down. I hope you find a way back to life
All the best,"end quote.
I of course kept his name out of it. Sigh again....
So, for now, i guess i just wanted to thank you guys for caring enough to write and yes i'll keep reading on this site over the coming days and weeks for sure. I get it intellectually what it is you are saying but its the feeling thing it goes deep and its hard, really hard to turn that around but i am trying. I do know my sponsor was right about my needing AA, i really do! I can come here and read and write with you and others and that gets to my brain but i need the people, i do not believe i can do it alone, i know i can't.
Still fighting...
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Unread 01-27-2010, 04:44 PM   #39
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Hello again Mr. Systems! Good for you, you are trying and thinking and working on things so your mind is open. As I read through the response from your sponsor literally my skin was crawling because of how many times he referred to you-and others suffering from the disease of addiction-as junkies! I know you have said that different words don't change things in your perspective, but, boy oh boy, do they matter to me! You are not a junky nor are you a recovering junky. You are a person, a man, son, friend, etc. Can't you feel how just saying the word junky makes you feel bad. Your sponsor said you are a good person deep down, I am saying you are a fully good person who is fighting a disease and so far winning the battle-and it has nothing to do with, "deep down".

I am sure it is not easy to quickly change your mind set after you have been hearing those negative things for so long. But, it is wonderful to hear you say that even though it is hard, really hard to turn that around you are trying! MrSystems that is the first step forward.

Don't know if there are many AA groups in the city you are in but I hope so-and then maybe you could go to another group which would be less condemning. Do you think that is a possibility? AA should not be inquiring or even concerned with what medications anyone is taking if the medicine is prescribed by a dr. That is nowhere a part of their mission. I do not believe anyone can do it alone either-everybody needs some support somewhere.

I am so glad that you are going to continue reading and writing here as that should help you sift through some things with a better perspective. No one should have to suffer with the disease of addiction now that there is medication available to help put it into remission.

It is a shame that society has put such stigma on it but I for one am doing all I can to help remove that stigma and am trying to get the word out that it is ok to take medicine for a disease. Welcome aboard, and happy reading and thinking!

Nan
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Unread 01-27-2010, 06:09 PM   #40
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MrSystems-Hi! I am a recovering addict also that goes to AA. I have a sponsor, but she doesn't know that I am on Sub. She is a wonderful person and I am very lucky to have her helping through this process. She gave me a book about two weeks ago called "Living Sober". The very last paragraph on page 88 says this:
It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become readdicted to any drug, it's equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems.

Take what you want from it, I found it helpful for me. I to struggle with the thought that I'm somehow being dishonest when I don't tell everyone the medication that I am on. You can choose to go and use the program and it's steps to help you in your recovery, it isn't necessary for them to know what medication you are taking.
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Unread 01-28-2010, 03:09 AM   #41
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Thanks again to Nan and Aleneb and Tim and anyone else who's given this a read or a thought, it all helps, it really does. Yes, i attend AA meetings generally about four or five a week, i've been really lucky to find some fantastic meetings here in Portland, my new home! I moved here about ten months ago and it was tough for a while but AA truly is so great for making contacts right away and with people who genuinely care, i couldn't do this without them, i know it. I am glad to have found this site and although i've not yet begun to really read beyond this one thread, soon i will. It is really good to hear from others that are going through the same thing or have been through it. I am so curious Nan, your not in recovery are you in the medical field? A therapist? Not sure if i'm allowed to ask those types of questions but its only because i'm so interested to know why someone would be blogging on this particular medication that hasn't needed it for themselves, perhaps, a loved one? That could explain it. Its just not the type of thing most people pay any attention to till they are effected then they pay attention all right! I lost my brother to this disease, he died from an overdose of opiates and alcohol about ten years ago, leaving behind a wife and two children, very tragic. I do so get that its very genetic, if there is such a term, very genetic, ha! So my question seems to be changing each time i read the entries here, like i mentioned i am not into being right about anything here, just wanting to understand and yes of course would love to come fully over to the other side of embracing this medication. And then, i don't want to, i guess my belief does serve me in one way, it is very motivating to me, once again, as of these last months, to get off this drug once and for all. It is soooo much better than the other opiates i'd used in the past, those were an absolute nightmare. My biggest fear, that i shared with my ex sponsor was that my brain, having had so many opiates over so many years will never be able to cope on its own, without the drug. I don't like to use the term forever as i know all we have is now and still, i go there. Soon, i am working towards making the next drop from 8mg to 4mg in a few days, i hope. If i'm not up for it, i'll relax a bit about it, if nothing else this site has helped me think more that way instead of get off it now or your dirty! Yes, you are right, words do matter. Although, for me, being called a junkie doesn't really bother me in fact i refer to myself as one in meetings sometimes. A recovering junkie. Sounds bad i know but that word doesn't bug me, the clean dirty, yes, that bugs!
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Unread 01-28-2010, 08:09 AM   #42
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Hi MrSystems, have you seen this segment from the HBO Addiction Series? Dr. Nora Volkow, head of NIDA, explains what addiction is:
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/underst...addiction.html

Actually the whole series is quite informative. They do have a segment on buprenorphine also.
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm...segment_6.html

One thing to think to about, the 8mg to 4mg drop is 50%. So if it gets too uncomfortable, think about going up to 6mg instead. Just be mindful that a reduction, if it is to be noticed, can take a couple/three days because of the halflife.

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Unread 02-26-2010, 10:36 PM   #43
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Hi! I was just wondering what SL VIT B means?
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Unread 02-26-2010, 11:32 PM   #44
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Hi bluestar53, I'm pretty sure Done was talking about sublingual vitamin b tablets.

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Unread 03-28-2010, 02:55 PM   #45
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I agree with the whole it is still an opiate you are not "clean" when I was trying to find outpatient (a requirement for my insurance to cover sub tx) more than 50% of the the treatment center I called do not allow people to be on sumboxone as it is still an opiate even had a gal tell me how much worse detoxing off of sub is vs opiates, one step at a time I'm admitting my life is messed up destroying us financial, I need encouragement not negativity, my DOCTOR and I chose this was best for me life is not black and white there are many shades of gray
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Unread 03-28-2010, 03:04 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanttogetsober View Post
I agree with the whole it is still an opiate you are not "clean" when I was trying to find outpatient (a requirement for my insurance to cover sub tx) more than 50% of the the treatment center I called do not allow people to be on sumboxone as it is still an opiate even had a gal tell me how much worse detoxing off of sub is vs opiates, one step at a time I'm admitting my life is messed up destroying us financial, I need encouragement not negativity, my DOCTOR and I chose this was best for me life is not black and white there are many shades of gray
Congratulations for seeing through the misinformation and seeking out a treatment that will help you achieve sustained addiction remission.
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Unread 04-06-2010, 06:41 PM   #47
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Great information Tim, being new here i use these post to help me in my recovery. Lots of great responces we learn from these responces. But im not IGNORANT and I resent that being said in a responce to this post. I dont think the people who follow this site or are just begining on this site are ignornat . Frankly there damm smart in IMO they're trying to kick this disease...Some will Succeed and some wont. The ones who dont never came out of the FOG I guess they're the ignorant ones, but give them a chance before you start beating them up... i had speek my mind This place rocks and I thank God evryday for it and the people involved.... thanks Chuck
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Unread 04-14-2010, 12:38 PM   #48
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ncsurf1,
Glad you found the info useful. We've seen so many people make one or several of the mistakes and sabotage their recovery. You're right that new people might not know about these things, and that doesn't mean they are not smart. In fact, new people have to overcome misinformation out there designed to steer them toward expensive, dangerous, and ineffective detox treatments. Some of these high profit overnight detox businesses bank of the fact that people don't understand addiction because if they did they would know that a detox still leaves them with the brain changes responsible for addiction. They also might receive pressure from well-meaning but uninformed support groups or family members who urge them to end their treatment too soon. These 5 mistakes are very easy to make especially when the knowledge needed to avoid them is hard to find and not offered by the high profit detox businesses.
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Unread 04-25-2010, 04:48 PM   #49
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It's great to be able to share experience, strength, and hope. I was trying to detox off of methadone once and was highly motivated to do it as quickly as possible. My stable dose was 45 Mgs. I needed and earned 3 different ways "carrys" The clinic at the time was trying to push ORLAM so the only way to get what I had earned (the privilege of going to the clinic only 3 times a week instead of 6) was to switch. I was concerned that it might not carry me when they translated what I was on to the different medication ORLAM (turned out it had the side effect of giving heart attacks) I decided I was going to go down a milligram a day to 30 mgs. stay stable for 3 weeks and then start going down again. 5 days into my detox I stood up to go to the clinic and was so sick I fell over. When I got up to the clinic I asked the dosing nurse to discontinue the detox. I felt better no more falling over from too low of a dose. about a week later I am in front of a dosing nurse she is looking at my chart and having obvious trouble computing my dose. It should have been easy 40 Mgs right? Wrong the detox had never actually been stopped and she was having trouble measuring 33 Mgs. of liquid. I had to laugh at myself because my "physical symptoms" had stopped at the thought that my detox had been halted. I had an inkling of how much of this was in my Mind as opposed to how much of my "symptoms" were indeed physical.

I am a redneck/addict who reads. The quintessential book on opiate addiction William Burroughs "Junky" published in 1957 is a very interesting read. The book is full of failed attempts trying every method under the sun to quit. Then he finds a medication and the problem is solved.
In my opinion suboxone is that medication. I participated in the original detox study in Everett Washington. (one of 5 cities) If you are new to suboxone know that you are fortunate indeed to have this as a treatment option.
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Unread 05-14-2010, 03:08 PM   #50
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Thank you so much!! That is such an eye opener to me!! That is so true, I wish everyone thought that way!!
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