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Unread 11-23-2008, 02:14 PM   #1
TIM
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Question Common misconceptions about Buprenorphine treatment

Here’s a post I found on a newspaper comment board. It shows all of the misconceptions about buprenorphine treatment all in one post. I responded to each point in red.

By: nurse jk wrote on Friday, Nov 21 at 09:13 PM »

Suboxone is a schedule III, controlled opiate drug which is very addicting. [Buprenorphine has a small potential for addiction. Even when administered to a high risk population. 100% of whom have histories of addiction, very few develop the uncontrollable compulsion to take the medication seen in addiction. see:is buprenorphine addictive] It is not the miracle drug the claims say. [The manufacturer, government, and advocacy groups go out of their way to claim that it is NOT a miracle drug, because this creates unrealistic expectations with some people, and when those unrealistic expectations are inevitably not met, they become disappointed, angry, or feel misled. Proper education is the best defense against unrealistic expectations.] We get hundreds of calls every week from people very addicted to this drug. [no doubt many people don’t understand the difference between physical dependence (normal and expected) and addiction (a diagnosed disorder). Such misunderstandings can be dangerous see: physical dependence vs addiction] This is what I hear from all of them....That they were never told the truth and are shocked and hurt and very disappointed that their withdrawal is worse than from a traditional opiate. [The withdrawal syndrome has been shown to be much less than full agonist opioids. If the brain changes caused by years of active addiction are ignored and not dealt with appropriately, the withdrawal symptoms they produce can easily and mistakenly be attributed to the treatment medication. Truth is the conditions responsible for some of these withdrawal symptoms preexisted the treatment with buprenorphine. See: The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence] They cannot get off of it...nor can they wean down and stop it. It has withdrawal of 2-4 weeks and is very difficult, causing a lot of body pain and other bad symptoms such as headaches, depression, lethargy, etc. [many patients have been able to comfortably taper off, providing they have prepared and allowed time for their brains to adapt back closer to preaddiction status. See people who have tapered off] The blocker is also being misrepresented...it is only utilized when a patient "shoots" up this drug...not even absorbed sublingually. [another misunderstood concept, buprenorphine is a blocker itself and at the right dose will effectively block other opioids. The naloxone component will help cause withdrawal when injected by someone physically dependent on full agonist opioids. See TIP40 page 23] The blocker also has nothing to do with throwing a person into withdrawal. [part right. The naloxone blocker will not initiate withdrawal when taken sublingually, but the buprenorphine itself can if administered too soon. See TIP40 page 19]

This drug is the most abused drug in Europe today. [Subutex is widely misused in Europe, but Suboxone (the abuse resistant formulation) is what is used in the US and the abuse rate is incredibly low. This person wants you to think because it is true in Europe it must be true here, when the opposite is true.] People are snorting and smoking it; even shooting it up and eventually they feel a "high", just takes a little longer to kick in. [There are a small minority that will abuse any medication, however these people usually will switch back to their drug of choice since the high is much less from bupe and it blocks other opioids for days. This is another reason why the misuse in the US is so low. Let’s look at real evidence instead of speculation, see actual US government statistics of bupe misuse] Seems as if doctors (usually psychiatrists) prescribing this drug are misleading people or just don't really know the facts. It is not much better than Methadone; people don't have to go to a clinic every morning, so it is more attractive and convenient. It is like a doctor office Methadone. We are not in agreement with getting patients addicted to another drug. [ Here’s why I often say understanding the difference between addiction and physical dependence is so important. This person is discounting a medication that could potential save lives because they don’t possess the knowledge of the difference between the terms. Buprenorphine treatment is NOT switching one addiction for another. See Is buprenorphine just switching one addiction for another?] We hope to help them get clean and live drug free without the misery of another drug addiction. [addiction free must be the first goal, drugs are not the problem addiction is. Many people take all kinds of drugs/medications for all kinds of things and live better and longer lives as a result. Drugs are not the enemy, addiction is. "clean" is not the most important goal "addiction remission" is. see What is the real goal]

I talk with hundreds of patients every month that are very distraught and angry about being given Suboxone and not being told it was harder to get off of than a traditional opiate, such as the pain pills and even heroin. [That’s because it is NOT more difficult, but the wrong assumptions about addiction and brain changes can lead people to this misconclusion] Most were told it is not an opiate. [Doctors are well aware that it is an opioid, plus all of the literature indicates it, if they did any self education at all they would have discovered this and should have questioned their doctor. www.naabt.org’s very first line at the top of the home page (arguably, the most prominent spot on the site) states “Buprenorphine (Suboxone®, Subutex®) is an opioid medication…” I think it is more likely people assume it isn’t an opioid, don’t bother to educate themselves, then claim they were misled. However knowing it is an opioid is meaningless without understanding what the difference is between full agonist opioids (heroin,hydrocone, morphine, methadone, and the rest) and a partial agonist (bupe), implying all opioids are the same is misleading] We are doing the anesthesia detox treatment on more and more Suboxone patients. People are just not being told the truth about it. [now we get to the motivation behind these misconceptions]

We are treating many Suboxone addicted individuals with the anesthesia detox procedure. [ average cost $12,000- $17,000] It is the only thing that works to help people get off of this drug without the weeks of withdrawal. [the evidence says otherwise]You must have heard by now the facts about the addictive nature of this drug. Your doctor has to know the addictive nature of Suboxone, the fact that it is an opiate and that it is impossible to get off of without extreme suffering. How can Suboxone assist in opiate withdrawal when it is an opiate...there are claims of no withdrawal from an opiate when giving Suboxone. That is because it is an opiate...just trading one for another and feeding a person the opiate the body needs to continue the addiction and prevent withdrawal. [ This person doesn’t know what addiction is, or what addiction treatment is for. There is a specific clinical definition for addiction, and not knowing it could cause someone to discontinue treatment too sson. It is the consequences of uncontrollable compulsive behavior that is bad, not the physical need for a medication. People in bupe treatment often very early are able to stop this dangerous behavior and begin to rebuild their lives, they rejoin work, school, relationships, society. They return to a more normal life and are given the opportunity to make positive meaningful changes in their lives which is the only path to long-term addiction remission. Since addiction was first classified as a brain disease over 50 years ago, the changes made to the brain have been shown with modern imagery and these brain adaptations take time to reverse. No quick 1 hour sedation in an ICU is going to help with these profound changes ] Our anesthesia detox procedure requires a 3-4 day stay and is an opiate detoxification treatment where a patient is placed under general anesthesia for approximately 1 hour. Once the patient is comfortably sleeping under the anesthesia, a medication is given intravenously that will push the opiates off of the receptors so the patient is clean. [they are under the false assumption that once opioids are off of the receptors the addiction is over. This isn’t even close to true and only the very start to treatment not some fix-all solution] Our revolutionary anesthesia detox procedure can greatly reduce the pain and suffering associated with a typical “cold turkey” opiate withdrawal. [does it make sense to you that 1 hour of drugs will reverse years of brain adaptations? The scientist don’t think so either]
[end]


About rapid detox

What are the pros and cons of detoxification under anesthesia (Rapid Detox)?

Pros: Treatment is administered in the intensive care unit where there are experts available to mange the intense symptoms of withdrawal such as seizures. The medical professionals who perform this method of detox are experienced in it.

Cons: It is not sufficient treatment for the brain disease of addiction. Detoxification is only the first step of a recovery, removing the opioids from the body does not do anything to treat the brain disease of addiction. Changes to the structure and function of the brain due to addiction may persist for months and if not treated usually result in relapse. Detox does not eliminate the cravings, and does not address the problems that lead to the addiction in the first place, unless psychosocial care is employed after the actual detoxification. It is physically dangerous, which is why it is done in an intensive care unit, and it is very expensive making it unavailable for most people. It is difficult to find data that reports the long-term outcomes of patients who are treated with inpatient detoxification. This method of detoxification is often a high profit private enterprise. Data as to actual efficacy especially over time is extremely difficult to obtain or validate. There is credible data that shows reasons not to use rapid detox.

In 2005 this was printed in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical association: "Rapid opioid detoxification with opioid antagonist induction using general anesthesia has emerged as an expensive, potentially dangerous, unproven approach to treat opioid dependence." (JAMA. 2005;294:903-913)



"In general, the data do not support using general anesthesia during detoxification," said Herbert Kleber, M.D., vice chair of APA's Council on Addiction Psychiatry and a coauthor of the report. "The critical thing is not what happens during detox, but what happens after, and we found no difference between the groups. In addition, there were serious life-threatening adverse effects in the anesthesia group."(Psychiatry News October 7, 2005)


"Anesthesia-assisted detoxification should have no significant role in the treatment of opioid dependence," wrote Patrick G. O'Connor, M.D., M.P.H., in an editorial accompanying the JAMA report..."When detoxification is provided to patients, other approaches using clonidine, methadone, or buprenorphine are likely to be at least as effective as anesthesia-assisted detoxification and also are safer and far less costly." (Psychiatry News October 7, 2005) 4/2008

more buprenphine facts can be found here:
http://www.naabt.org/education.cfm


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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 11-23-2008, 02:32 PM   #2
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Thanks Tim, I loved reading the whole thing and what you wrote was the total truth.
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Unread 11-23-2008, 02:44 PM   #3
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Good read Tim, as always. Thank you.

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Unread 11-23-2008, 02:45 PM   #4
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Thanks Tim. For putting this all together in one post.
Now if some how people would just read it and understand it.

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Unread 11-23-2008, 03:12 PM   #5
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Thanks Tim

Nice "nutshell" of suboxone treatment.

Glen aka theswan
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Unread 11-23-2008, 04:55 PM   #6
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Great Job Tim

Any chance that can be stickied?
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Unread 11-23-2008, 10:30 PM   #7
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Tim,

It's unbelieveable how misunderstood Sub treatment is - or maybe it is not misunderstood. I think it may just be that Sub treatment is an easy target to exploit by those with a different agenda (to sell one-shot, cure-all, anasthesia detoxes.)

I think I said in another thread that proponents of Sub treatment (NAABT.org and/or Addiction Survivors) need a way of gathering statistics using meaningful metrics to demonstrate the differentiators between treatments such as 21-day methadone detoxes, 3-day anasthesia detoxes and Sub treatment. One problem, however, is that outside of early clinical trials, Sub treatment plans are individualized and mostly unstructured. Such is one of the reasons it is so successful in the first place. Unfortunately the very individualization that makes Sub treatment a success leaves it vulnerable to those who criticize it. I wish I had a solution to this problem, but I don't. I do, however, share your concerns about such postings on newspaper comment boards.

Thanks again for being diligent and brilliant in all you do for us, Tim.

-Packrat
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Unread 11-25-2008, 09:56 PM   #8
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Hi Packrat,
I think addiction itself is still generally misunderstood so any ideas about treatment are based on a faulty foundation. If someone thinks addiction is a choice, then no medication makes sense. The person in the first post here points out so many of the misunderstandings and attitudes that still exist despite evidence and attempts at education. Part of the problem is addiction is an industry to some and an office-based treatment threatens some livelihoods. How many other diseases have reality shows about them?

There are already plenty of studies showing how effective ongoing treatment is when compared to any form of detox treatment, but the people who don't understand addiction only measure success by what happens when the medication is taken away. They say "well you're still on a drug, it doesn't count, see what happens when you get off it" they ignore the fact that mortality rate, HIV and HEP-c transmission, unemployment and crime are all down in the group who remain in treatment, yet they totally ignore it.

Check out this study it compared a 7 day bupe detox to one year of ongoing bupe treatment. Both groups were offered the same counseling for the entire year. 20% of the detox group died and the rest had relapsed, while 75% of the treatment group remained addiction free the whole year and all lived. How anyone can look at that study and conclude short treatments are better is just beyond me. They practically say, "well so what, they were on a drug" missing the whole point about how dangerous detox treatments can be because they lower a persons tolerance and a dose that got them high before is fatal now. That's why so many die after a relapse.
study: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14420

Until people understand addiction well enough to determine what an appropriate goal of treatment is, zealots will continue to urge people to ignore science and go the detox route, and realpse, over and over until they die. This is a true case of ignorance kills.

Tim
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Unread 11-26-2008, 09:11 PM   #9
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Thank you TIM. The "nurse" was promoting UROD as a safe effective way to treat opiate addiction....

In 2005 this was printed in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical association: "Rapid opioid detoxification with opioid antagonist induction using general anesthesia has emerged as an expensive, potentially dangerous, unproven approach to treat opioid dependence." (JAMA. 2005;294:903-913)

Seems her criticism of sub was merely an attempt to promote a very expensive and potentially dangerous anesthesia induced withdrawal called UROD.

~josie
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Unread 12-02-2008, 04:10 PM   #10
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Detox treatments just take the drugs out of your system, but the brain changes that are left behind is what addiction is. I detoxed myself 100s of times, but it wasn't until I got real treatment and took the time to makes changes that I was able to stop longterm.

Detox treatments only work for people who are only physically dependent, not addicted. In other words detox treatments only work for those who really don't need it and could probably quit on there own and save a bundle too. But people with addictions won't find any quick fit to work, because the brain changes slowly and changing it back happens slowly too, simple as that.
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Unread 12-03-2008, 12:04 AM   #11
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Hello,

This person nurse jk says she is a nurse??? She is so full of BS it isn't funny! I do take the Subutex form and I have bottles of it laying around fact, sometimes I forget to take it. I never forgot to take any full agonist drug or my DOC that is for sure! No matter how much I had, it would be gone by morning.

This is what this so called nurse says:
"We get hundreds of calls every week from people very addicted to this drug." and
"I talk with hundreds of patients every month that are very distraught and angry about being given Suboxone and not being told it was harder to get off of than a traditional opiate, such as the pain pills and even heroin."

She talks to "hundreds" of people every month, who all say this huh??? Why do I get the feeling she is stretching the truth a bit? Think about the logic of what she is saying. She speaks to hundreds of people every month? Sure she does..

The people that she does talk to that are extremely disappointed are probably really disappointed that they are not getting a buzz of it like they would with a full agonist.

BTW, I was on methadone maintenance in 1981 and 1982 and most of 1983. There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON between Methadone and Subutex. I am currently on 24mg of Subutex and working my way down, I was on 32mg for several months and you know what? I still didn't feel like I was taking anything except maybe being a little tired. On 24mg, I don't feel anything from it. I just don't crave opiates.
I will tell you that EVERYDAY I went to the clinic to get my daily dose of Methadone, I defintely felt a buzz. I wasn't taking all that much either. The most I was on was around 100mg with the average dose being around 60mg. The buzz was not like taking my DOC which at the time was heroin, but there was defintely mood lifting euphoric feelings that I would feel every morning from it. Subutex does not do that!

She also says: "They cannot get off of it...nor can they wean down and stop it. It has withdrawal of 2-4 weeks and is very difficult, causing a lot of body pain and other bad symptoms such as headaches, depression, lethargy, etc."

Yeah, I am sure that if someone just stops taking Subutex or thinks they are going to taper off it in a week or 2 after being on it for a year, then they are bound to feel pretty miserable.
Let her try going cold turkey or doing a quick taper of a full agonist and I guarantee she would feel a lot worse and probably for a longer time! Kicking heroin cold turkey and getting over it in a few days or even a week is such a myth. The times I did it, I didn't feel completely right for weeks.

I get sick of these people who are obviously abstinance only trying to spread lies around just because they can't accept that not everyone, hell, MOST people are not going to go on to live permenatly drug free lives. NA / AA by themselves without any medical treatment has a horrible rate of recovery. I go to AA, but somehow I get the feeling that she is one of those die hard 12 steppers or at least some works in a drug treatment that is 12 step or abstinance only.

This is a chronic disease and a relapse can end in death! I am not her to impress anyone who believes they are superior because they are not using any medicines, (at least at the moment they aren't). I am here to save my own life and if just cool aid works for someone then that's great, but don't be judging me. I have done the cool aid only, ( 12 steps with no other treatment), since 1976. I have had long periods of sobriety, but this time after seeing that relapse coming, I decided to get on Subutex. I had 2 years totally medication free and it was a real hard decision to make, but I am very glad I made the choice this time, because if I didn't I might not be here today to write this.

I believe whatever works for someone, then more power to them. Whether it is Sub, Methadone, 12-steps, counseling or Zen Buddah, who cares as long as it works for you.

Mark
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Unread 12-03-2008, 12:55 PM   #12
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Mark,
After reading your experience on methadone it does not sound too bad, it gave you a little buzz in the morning, thats a bad thing? Whats wrong with the drug getting you off heroin making you feel a little good so long as you dont get obssessed with it and start abusing that drug instead
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Unread 12-03-2008, 01:16 PM   #13
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The last thing I wanted was a buzz every morning to remind me of drugs, but worse than that was the clinic environment, I hated going to a clinic every morning being around the same dirtbags I bought dope from, how can someone change doing that? I stayed off dope while on meth, but nothing else improved then when I got off I relapsed. Since starting sub I was able to get a prescription once a month, no buzz to remind me of drugs, I was able to change and grow. I don't know if the drug itself or the difference in delivery systems was the bigger factor, but my whole life improved once I didn't have to go to a meth clinic each day.
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Unread 12-03-2008, 10:32 PM   #14
basquiat34
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Ya sub-zero, I am beginning to think some of the public clinics are nasty, dirty places with mean nurses and even worse fellow patients. I am lucky that I live near a private clinic that does not take insurance so it is quiet with no lines and mostly normal, clean, soft-spoken people like me who just got stuck on some stupid drug. The people are really cool and supporitve too and even let me bring my yorkie in for treats everyday. I guess I lucked out big time, maybe I would be writing totally different post if I went elsewhere
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Unread 12-03-2008, 11:53 PM   #15
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Hello Basquiat34,

I can ONLY speak for myself, but the little buzz makes Methadone harder to get off from. Again, I can only speak for myself.

You did luck out with your clinic. Most of them, (an I have been to several), only give weekend doses, but no more. There is mandatory drug testing. There are people selling their Methadone out in front of the clinic as well as other drugs...right out in the open. There is a dose cap, (which is probably a good thing).

I remember a clinic in Glendale, California, I was waiting to see the doctor or something a guy and a women come in and start a fight with her EX. The guy with the girl was punching the guy waiting for his Methadone and all he could say was please can you just wait until I get my dose! The women had a blanket with something wrapped in it. I almost thought it was a baby or something. All of a sudden she takes out an assault rifle...an AK47 I believe and points it at her EX with this insane look on her face. I thought I was going to die that day, but some people wrestled her to the ground and called the police. Nice crowd that went to that clinic...LOL. That was one of the incidents that made me go into a detox and get off Methadone, so I wouldn't have to go to that clinic anymore. The other ones within any reasonable driving distance were about the same.

It is these types of people who hang around the clinics and sell their drugs and carry guns and generally break the law and don't care at all about recovery that cause such a stigma against Methadone. Every time I would go into any of those clinics I felt like I was at the bottom of the barrel. I felt like dirt, even though I remained totally free of all the other drugs and observed all of the clinic rules.

You found a good clinic I think that is great. I am for anything that will free you of the addictive behavior. When used properly and as prescribed Methadone does work. It works much better if you have some type of program or counseling along with it.

I wish you the very best of luck.

Mark
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Unread 12-26-2008, 12:47 PM   #16
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I wish everyone would read the first post in this thread! It clears up so much...
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Unread 12-26-2008, 11:29 PM   #17
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Perhaps this entire thread s/b a sticky in the Welcome Room forum?

-Packrat
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Unread 12-30-2008, 06:31 PM   #18
Stepwagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TIM View Post
Hi Packrat,
I think addiction itself is still generally misunderstood so any ideas about treatment are based on a faulty foundation. If someone thinks addiction is a choice, then no medication makes sense. The person in the first post here points out so many of the misunderstandings and attitudes that still exist despite evidence and attempts at education. Part of the problem is addiction is an industry to some and an office-based treatment threatens some livelihoods. How many other diseases have reality shows about them?

There are already plenty of studies showing how effective ongoing treatment is when compared to any form of detox treatment, but the people who don't understand addiction only measure success by what happens when the medication is taken away. They say "well you're still on a drug, it doesn't count, see what happens when you get off it" they ignore the fact that mortality rate, HIV and HEP-c transmission, unemployment and crime are all down in the group who remain in treatment, yet they totally ignore it.

Check out this study it compared a 7 day bupe detox to one year of ongoing bupe treatment. Both groups were offered the same counseling for the entire year. 20% of the detox group died and the rest had relapsed, while 75% of the treatment group remained addiction free the whole year and all lived. How anyone can look at that study and conclude short treatments are better is just beyond me. They practically say, "well so what, they were on a drug" missing the whole point about how dangerous detox treatments can be because they lower a persons tolerance and a dose that got them high before is fatal now. That's why so many die after a relapse.
study: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14420

Until people understand addiction well enough to determine what an appropriate goal of treatment is, zealots will continue to urge people to ignore science and go the detox route, and realpse, over and over until they die. This is a true case of ignorance kills.

Tim
The other missing piece is that, from my own experience with hundreds of addicts on both sides of recovery (and myself, when I was active), is that the Rapid detox/B-phine treatment is more likely to be seen as a 'quick fix'. The family of the addict pulls together and drops $4500 on the treatment, and the issue is more likely to become 'the horrors of Opiate addiction'-and not the treatment of the addict. The unrecovered addict feels 'safe' by the fact that there is an implant, the unrecovered family feels 'safe' that 'at least Johnny wont be using dope anymore'.,....and the cycle continues when Johnny thinks he can safely drink and smoke pot without 'the desire for opiates'

We have a local Charlatan doctor here who churns out handfuls of these unrecovered rapid-detox patients every day. Thyis has been going on for years, and I have yet to ever see one turn up in the local recovery community. The doctor is also a GP, and was my primary-care physician, because he was convenient, close, and my wife and I liked his Nurse-practitioner for quick checkups . I went to his office for almost eight years, and saw the families come in with the young-opiate addicts (always reeling from a heavy last blow-out as a last hurrah). They would have their naive hopes of a one time fix, just like most families entering their children into treamtent centers.

.....the only difference is that the actual addiction treatment was only mentioned as a side-subject, and the doctor would hand them a card of a local addiction counselor as a 'way to increase the odds of success'

In the eight years I went through his lobby. I never saw the first piece of NA or AA literature. I saw 'overeaters anonymous' pamplets, but never the first reference to long-term treatment/support.

In the eleven years I have been clean, I have yet to ever see the first success story from the 3-4 patients he churns out every day.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 07:51 PM   #19
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Good points Stepwagon, This year the World Health Organization recognized medication assisted treatment as the standard of care. This is a big deal because until then any harebrain addiction treatment could claim the same status, but now there is one standard of care and several sub-standards.

As the evidence piles up against these high profit overnight addiction treatments and people begin to understand chronic conditions don’t have overnight cures, I think adequate addiction treatments will become more common and the scams will be exposed.

It is a shame about those poor people and their families near you that got swindled when they were so vulnerable and hopeful. Education is the best defense.

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Unread 12-30-2008, 09:20 PM   #20
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Like I said. Buprenorphine pushing doctors honestly dont care as much about the long term treatment of their patients, rather than the quick money gained by the rapid detox and administration of the beprenorphine.

I have been around hardcore, early-middle-and late-stage opiate addicts since I was a young kid. Ive known close to a thousand, and some have been as close as family, for more than thirty years. I have never met one that had not detoxed themselves dozens, if not over a hundred times. Its painful, gut-wrenching pure misery, some of the worst physical pain I've ever felt...but it only lasts 3-4 days. Hardly worth wasting $4500 on....unless it was someone else's money..and most unrecovered addicts would much rather have a relative spend the money on an implant or a script than actual treament.

My point being, that the money billed these people would be much better spent paying for a month of in-house treatment...treating and recovering from the disease of addiction, and not wasting precious resources focusing on 'fixing' the physical dependence. Most of the people treated arent independently wealthy, and after 4500, if they can afford a month of in-patient treatment, they have spent mostly all they can. The treatment makes them feel better, have hope, and one more reason not to actually do the work it takes to recover.

Im sure the vested interests, the Pharmaceutical companies, and doctors who enjoy the rewards lobbied good and hard to get the WHO to declare this 'a treatment standard'.

If you talk to people in the counseling fields, the addiction specialists, and psychologists, they would rather see the time, money, and energy go towards the actual treatment of the disease....and an NA 'basic text', or a 'big book'. Can you produce any serious, authentic treatment professionals that would rather see a patient do rapid detox/buprenorphine than go to a month of intensive in-patient treatment?

Therein lies about the only guaranteed success. But that doesnt make anyone any money, now does it?

Do you seriously think that most of these doctors would ever suggest their patients go into a detox, and then a 30 day program? if it meant they would give up a client? how many would limit their ability to make 9-14k a day with only a nurse-practitioner, an office, and a small staff? Are you going to tell me that there is a serious evaluation precoess to weed out people who are guaranteed to skip all treatment/counseling once the rescription is given, and the family writes the check?

Now your going to tell me that the doctors are sincere, honest, and concerned, and that is relatively true...they are doctors doing what doctors do: treating physical symptoms....but many of them have willfill ignorance about what they actually do to contribute to the problem by offering quick fixes at a price. This is naive at best...willful ignorance in the median...and charlatanism when at the worst end of the spectrum.

Interesting that this site only has ads for Bupenorphine treatment and the doctors that do it. No links to other recovery sites? No links to NA, CDA, Al-Anon, NAADAC, or AA world services? You'd think by looking at this site that opiate addicts were hopeless before Buprenorphine was developed.

I wonder what the hundreds of thousands of successfully recovering opiate addicts did before Buprenorphine?
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Unread 12-30-2008, 10:14 PM   #21
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I see I misunderstood your position. I thought you were agreeing with me about how unproven and unsafe rapid detox is. Now I see that you are advocating against the medical treatment of addiction. The evidence is on the other side of that issue. I donÂ’t understand why you are pitting buprenorphine against NA/NAADAC both fulfill a different roll in a recovery. Buprenorphine can treat the physical symptoms making the counseling and peer support more effective. The medication doesnÂ’t replace those things.

Buprenorphine is not rapid detox, whatever $4500 procedure youÂ’re referring to is not what office based buprenorphine treatment is. Like any medication it can be used wrong, maybe the doctors near you are in this group? Buprenorphine treatment isnÂ’t a quick fix, its suggested most people will need at least 6 months to a year, some much longer. During and after the medication phase patients are urged to attend peer support groups and counseling, itÂ’s an ongoing process.

There is no “detox” with office based buprenorphine treatment, it's not necessary, patients wait until they are in mild withdrawal and begin then bupe. The average price doctors charge for this is $200-$300 for induction and $100- $200 for monthly follow up visits. The medication cost about $12/day. Some charge more and some charge less. It should be paid for by local government IMO but that’s not the case.

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Originally Posted by Stepwagon View Post
Interesting that this site only has ads for Bupenorphine treatment and the doctors that do it. No links to other recovery sites?
The same page that lists the doctors also lists links to counselors, treatment centers and peer support like AA./NA SMART take a look www.naabt.org/local


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Originally Posted by Stepwagon View Post
Ive known close to a thousand, and some have been as close as family, for more than thirty years. I have never met one that had not detoxed themselves dozens, if not over a hundred times. Its painful, gut-wrenching pure misery, some of the worst physical pain I've ever feltÂ…
That sounds terrible! Why not choose treatment and return to normal life? What kind of a life did these people have suffering through painful detoxes over 100 times? Sounds like a room in hell. To detox 100 times they must have relapsed at least 99. Relapse is a life threatening event, I canÂ’t even guess how many people died using this method. Why would you advocate putting people through this if there is medication now that helps them put the addiction in remission without all of that needless suffering and risk of life?

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Originally Posted by Stepwagon View Post
some of the worst physical pain I've ever felt...but it only lasts 3-4 daysÂ….
Sure the acute withdrawal lasts for 3 days or so, but what about the post acute withdrawal? Many people can quit for a few days or even weeks but with altered brain chemistry, they are unable to feel pleasure like a normal person, sometimes for years. Most people canÂ’t take this and relapse manyÂ…well..over 100 times, each time they risk death. Science has discovered addiction alters the brain in long lasting ways, if a 3 day detox was all it took everyone would do that, it takes a long time for the brain to adapt and medications like buprenorphine help suppress these symptoms allowing the patient to work, go to school, go to counseling and peer support and make the positive changes in their lives that will translate to long term addiction remission. I think you have the wrong idea about buprenorphine treatment.

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Originally Posted by Stepwagon View Post
I wonder what the hundreds of thousands of successfully recovering opiate addicts did before Buprenorphine?
People who can stop without medication didn't need bupe then and donÂ’t need it now, itÂ’s the hundreds of thousands who are unable to stop by sheer will, those are the ones who benefit from medication. What happened to those folks before bupe?Â… they went on methadone or they died.

Tim
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Unread 01-01-2009, 08:03 AM   #22
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Tim, I can always count on you to make sence of things. That was a great response to the misconceptions of buprenorphine treatment. My pain Dr. always checked in with me about AA,NA,program sponsor, what step I'm on. He lead me to believe that sobrety in traditional 12-step program will always be key in his treatment of my pain. I've always been under the impression that is the cornerstone of any recovery program.
Thanks again... shaman007
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Unread 01-15-2009, 02:05 PM   #23
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Does anyone remember the rash of negative stories published by the Baltimore Sun last year around this time? It was a series of stories attempting to uncover big problems with buprenorphine, including diversion, misuse, and efficacy.

It received a lot of attention, so much so the grand jury for Baltimore was convened to investigate, here's what they found:
http://www.baltimorehealth.org/info/...anuary2008.pdf
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Unread 07-24-2009, 01:21 PM   #24
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Hey tim,
Thanks for the infor. Very important for people to equip themselves with knowledge so that the proper decisions can be made. I've been a heavy heroin addict for @14yrs, and have tried everything under the sun for that miricle way of a drug (opiate) lifestyle. I'm new to this web-site and have been on Subox for @2wks now. I'm on 8mgs. I hope I'm doing the right thing for me and for my wife and kids.
Anyway once again Thanks!!!!!!!!
Hopefullly we can stay in communication.
My user name is Johnson
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Unread 08-22-2009, 01:08 PM   #25
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Awesome stuff Tim! You should consider getting involved with NAMA Recovery, you would make a great Advocate with your knowledge and your way of speaking so intelligently on the subject. Angel
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Unread 09-26-2009, 09:59 AM   #26
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Tim
I printed your responses to the misconceptions about suboxene and I have a question about UROD. In PA I know from my advocacy work that one young man died, have you heard about any others? Hearsay says that about 17 people from Florida up the East coast have died from it, if it is such a dangerous thing why is it legal, and as advocates for recovery is there anything we can do to stop this money making scam?????????

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Unread 09-26-2009, 11:42 AM   #27
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Hi Darkeyes,
A Dr. Gooberman (that's his real name) was accused of providing inadequate treatment and/or aftercare for seven patients who died within three days of being administered the procedure [urod] between 1995 and 1999. These are the known deaths from just one doctor in New Jersey. Dozens of other people experienced serious complications. Source link http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...286-688649_ITM

Since UROD only removes the opioids and does nothing to address the long-term brain adaptations caused by addiction, the cravings and post acute withdrawal symptoms still remain. Many patients cannot take this for very long and is why they didn't just stop on their own without treatment. Instead some resorted to cocaine for some relief from the depression, cravings, stress, lethargy, physical pain,and anxiety. Part of Dr Gooberman's procedure was to implant a naltrexone pellet that would block any opioids so patients could not get relief from opioids. Although a relapse to opioids would be bad, switching to a drug that they are less familiar with, in some cases cocaine, led to overdose deaths. Dr. Gooberman was not held liable for the cocaine deaths because it was determined that the patients violated the recommendations, which undoubtedly were something like "don't use cocaine". I hope people use this lesson to understand that addiction develops slowly and is the product of brain adaptations. No quick detox reverses this, it takes months to reverse the brain adaptations that cause the cravings and lasting low level withdrawal symptoms of addiction.

You might ask, "well I heard of quick detoxes working for some people why wouldn't it work for evryone" The people it works for are people who are only physically dependent on opioids not people who have become addicted. The brain adaptations associated with physical dependence are different than those with addiction and reverse themselves within a few weeks of abstinence. People who are only physically dependent don't need any addiction treatment and can simply stop on their own. These people are the ones who do well after a quick expensive detox, although they would have without it too. You'll notice none of the rapid detox peddlers distinguish the difference between physical dependence and addiction, they rely on ignorance to stay in business.

Difference between physical dependence and addiction
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15332

Tim
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Unread 10-01-2009, 08:07 AM   #28
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Tim
Yeah, I heard of Goobermen, one young man here in PA dug the pellet out with his fingers and sadly died in his mothers arms. I would like to know if ANYONE ever has benefited from this horrible procedure. And how many lawsuits are pending. That will give me something to do when I get back from Cape Cod, I have to know why it's still legal and how they can charge such outrageous rates.

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patented as Ultra-Rapid Opiate Detoxification (UROD), found that 55 percent of the patients who underwent the procedure remained relapse-free after six months (see ADAW, June 15, 1998).


i don't believe this for a second.
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Unread 10-03-2009, 09:08 AM   #29
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"found that 55 percent of the patients who underwent the procedure remained relapse-free after six months" - maybe they are counting the people that died.



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Unread 10-11-2009, 02:43 PM   #30
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Thanks Tim! After 3 years of taking darvocet daily for pain, I made the decision to find a solution to my pain problems, instead of taking a pill. I did not realize the extent of addiction, or that it applied to me until I stopped taking the darvocet. Withdrawl was terrible, and even while trying to taper off, the symptoms were awful. I did a lot of research, talked to several therapists, and was directed to Subox treatment. Today is my first day, and I feel better already. Thank you for all the information, I have read many conflicting reports, and yours addressed most of my concerns and questions. Thank you again.
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Unread 11-09-2009, 04:50 PM   #31
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In response to the comment " They cannot get off of it...nor can they wean
down and stop it." While it is true that vomiting (among other things), aching arms & legs, cold chills, sweating, all pretty close to flu like symptoms are part of the physical affects that make it difficult to stop, there seem to be psychological affects as well that cause people to relapse. Certain people and places trigger something and either cause individuals to use, or at least want to. I've often wondered which is worse, the physical symptoms or psychological?
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Unread 11-09-2009, 05:53 PM   #32
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IMO, I believe that the psychological symptoms are far, far worse. They never went away. Even after the physical symptoms were gone, for me, if I didn't have Vicodin, I would often stay in bed a lot, and I just felt like jumping out of my skin. It was HORRIBLE. I thank God that I discovered Sub, and am fortunate enough to be on it. It has changed my life, and I now have an excellent quality of life.
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Unread 11-10-2009, 03:30 AM   #33
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MichelleJ ~ I agree 100%!! It was the same for me. Whenever I'd run out of my DOC, yeah the physical withdrawals were horrendous, BUT once they abated enough to be bearable I had the mental withdrawals to deal with. And they seemed to never ever lessen at all. I would constantly be thinking about pills, where to get them, how to get them, who had some, etc. It was like my mind was all encompassed with nothing BUT pills. Especially when stressed and/or anxious, or whenever I'd be around people or places that reminded of using. It was just a CONSTANT battle with my own mind!! So grateful that I began Sub treatment...you're so right...it is life changing!!
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Unread 11-12-2009, 07:02 PM   #34
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This is all really interesting stuff and questions I've had since starting suboxon 12 days ago. I have to believe it is a miricle drug in that my body is already turning to normal "functioning" with respect to slec.ep, pain, discomfort and the constant mental battle, to say nothing of the cost of street drugs such as metadone, norco, etc. if I can now wake up without gut wrenching pain when I couldn't do that 2 weeks ago, something has to be right I think. Don't know tho cause this is ALL totally new info for me.

Best regards to all
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Unread 12-28-2009, 11:27 AM   #35
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Hey tim,,,

you may have made some good points but some are in my opinion incorrect. you use the term acute wd's and dependence over addiction. It seems you just dont wanna believe some of the things reported about this drug.acute wd or dependence ,,,the terminology makes no difference to the person going through wd. Now if a patient has their bottle of pills and takes them correctly you can call that physical dependence,,,,but what about if that person didnt follow instructions and ran out of their meds early. what do you think will happen,,,i ll tell ya,,,they will resort to old behavior and get whatever it takes to get out of wd's. and that is addiction my friend. It all depends on the patient whether or not they are dependent or addicted and how they use their drugs,,,,i know its hard for someone like you who hasnt ever felt the horrible feelings of wd but if you had you would understand a little better instead of using termonology to cover up the fact that some patients are addicted to sub. now i know weve clashed over this for years but weve done it respectfully and i hope we can continue to do that even though we both feel we are right.
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Unread 12-28-2009, 12:17 PM   #36
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Hi Tommy .............

I certainly don't disagree with what you are trying to get across here. As someone who has lived it, I would like to add my take on it and I think it is something which you will understand and like I have with your words, be able to see the connections.

For fine years now I have read the good and bad stories regarding this medication. For nearly four years now I have taken it myself and I have worked daily with others who take, along with a great many here locally who simply suffer from this disease and do not take it.

In regard to taking this medication we have a few options. First we can take it for short detox only, longer term recovery or for life. Further, we have some other options and the optimum word here is WE, we can stop taking it and try something different because it just isn't the right choice for us, we can choose to not take it properly and suffer the results or we can take it properly, proactively and move forward in recovery.

In regard to becoming addicted to Suboxone, that simply doesn't happen and the reason is really basic. We already suffer from this disease before we ever take Suboxone, so we do not begin a new disease of addiction. However, if WE choose to make it our new drug of choice, then we are going to pay a price for that. And I agree with you, that certainly does happen and it can happen for various reasons, from poor medical advice to simply not being personally ready to enter serious recovery.

So when I consider the science behind this medication and the various outcomes people can have, between what we can call success stories and horror stories, in my mind the end result always comes back on one common factor, us, the individuals who need to recover and heal.

I think this is why I have been so damn stubborn about how the bad experiences are shared, they need to be used as a learning tool. First for the person having a bad experience so they can correct it and get a good program going and second for the new comers so they can learn how to avoid the mistakes and dangers.

I have abused this medication, I have tapered myself off it, I have skipped days, I have worried about running out, I have bought it on the streets and I have taken it responsibly and productively. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the good, and the bad lays with us and no one else!

So my friend, I agree we need to make sure others know and understand the dangers, but, in turn as Tim tries to do, I think we need to try and help them understand the exact process and that process tells us, that we do not develop a new addiction, it's the same old one which has been haunting us, we just screw up and make Sub our new drug of choice, if we don't do what is best for us.

Sorry to ramble so much Tommy and I hope it makes sense, I didn't realize it had gotten so darn long.

Mike
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Unread 12-28-2009, 12:43 PM   #37
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Tommy, I don't want you to take this wrong and honestly it's not anything which you haven't already said yourself. In the past you haven't exactly worked the best Sub program or overall recovery program. You know that. However, you have been making good strides in trying to change that and sadly tragedy hit in the middle of it.

Now your in the process of trying to regroup and stay on that course you began and frankly given the circumstances you have done and are doing good things for yourself. To be honest, I am surprised, as most men would have crumbled and I am very proud of you.

I know you still have a long road ahead as your life as changed so dramatically and I know that you know, that it is going to take time. But Tommy, as you move along putting it all back together and working on getting your recovery program right where you want it, if I can be of any help with the Suboxone, please just ask. I will help you anyway I can and it will be based on what "you" want to achieve, not what me or anyone else thinks you should be doing.

Life in recovery is a bit different for each of us, but, we share the same common wishes, to be moving forward, to stop the pain and struggle with the disease and to make life stable again, so we can enjoy it and be good for our families.

for some that means no medications at all, for other it doesn't. The point is, to stop the addictive behavior and to stop the struggle with that behavior.

So please Tommy, don't ever short change yourself, you have come a long way and you can go the rest of the way. So when the time comes to focus on the Sub, if I can help in anyway, please know that I am more than willing. Your a dad just like I am fighting for the same things, to be the best dad you can for your children and I understand those feelings and I know you can do it.

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Unread 12-28-2009, 01:14 PM   #38
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Thanks Mike,,i really appriciate that. Im hangin in there and doin my best and having my family back these last few weeks have been so great! As for frieda ,,well im doin ok,,shes here with me and if there is any kind sense to her dying i would think it would be for me to get stronger and be a better fater. ive taken them to two meetings with the tharapist and it was cool. it helped to have a third party see us as a family and spot things that might help such as me bein a little less strick and realizing that they are growing up and i have to change with them.,,as long as they dont get to the point where i get a hug and a goodnight i love you i will be happy.
As for the sub,,,i might take ya up on your offer of help but i dont know what im gonna do yet,i have no doctor but a large stash from over the yeas and ive cut my dose in half and feel no different. i get no feeling from sub,,good or bad,,,just know i have no desire for other opiates. i do plan to keep going lower and get to that lowest dose that works,,,like ive said,,ive been on it goin on 6ys and i dont feel it has affected me i any bad way,,,i think if i got off i would be the old me and i feel i may need thids safety net forever maye,,i dont know.i dont care that others may have endless peoblems after takin sub long term,,,i only have one side affect and thats no sex drive but that works well for me cause it will always be me and frieda till the hus come off!
Im doin better,,i know its just a phase cause im holding it in more now and its like ive gone backwards and back to the point of deniel.plus i cant let myself think about it aymore,,,but me and my girls will get through this.
One thing you could do is give me some tips on setting the carb on my 1969 bonniville triuph!LOL
TT
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Unread 12-28-2009, 01:24 PM   #39
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In regard to taking this medication we have a few options. First we can take it for short detox only, longer term recovery or for life. Further, we have some other options and the optimum word here is WE, we can stop taking it and try something different because it just isn't the right choice for us, we can choose to not take it properly and suffer the results or we can take it properly, proactively and move forward in recovery.

In regard to becoming addicted to Suboxone, that simply doesn't happen and the reason is really basic. We already suffer from this disease before we ever take Suboxone, so we do not begin a new disease of addiction. However, if WE choose to make it our new drug of choice, then we are going to pay a price for that. And I agree with you, that certainly does happen and it can happen for various reasons, from poor medical advice to simply not being personally ready to enter serious recovery.

So when I consider the science behind this medication and the various outcomes people can have, between what we can call success stories and horror stories, in my mind the end result always comes back on one common factor, us, the individuals who need to recover and heal.

I think this is why I have been so damn stubborn about how the bad experiences are shared, they need to be used as a learning tool. First for the person having a bad experience so they can correct it and get a good program going and second for the new comers so they can learn how to avoid the mistakes and dangers.

I have abused this medication, I have tapered myself off it, I have skipped days, I have worried about running out, I have bought it on the streets and I have taken it responsibly and productively. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the good, and the bad lays with us and no one else!

So my friend, I agree we need to make sure others know and understand the dangers, but, in turn as Tim tries to do, I think we need to try and help them understand the exact process and that process tells us, that we do not develop a new addiction, it's the same old one which has been haunting us, we just screw up and make Sub our new drug of choice, if we don't do what is best for us.


Mike-I found what you wrote extremely helpful to me.Thanks for the honesty and openness. I wish sometimes I could put my words together better, but all in all, your explanation above really struck home with me. Thanks.
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Last edited by amb128; 12-28-2009 at 01:26 PM.. Reason: don't think I used Mikes post right.
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Unread 12-28-2009, 05:07 PM   #40
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Tommy, I have an old guy all of us guys call Papa Smurf who rebuilds and jets the carbs, but, here are some pages which might help you or at least get you in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROb_xD200k

http://www.triumph-bonneville.com/images/TN4.pdf

http://www.dinqua.com/Triumph/carbs1.html
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Unread 12-28-2009, 05:08 PM   #41
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Also hunt up a Triumph message board online and go in and ask those guys, trust me, I have gotten good advice that way.

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Unread 12-28-2009, 05:13 PM   #42
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Tommy here is one more site to try!


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Motorcycle-Repair-837/


then like I said, try to find a message board you like on Triumphs.

I have one I use for Ohio bikes in general and then one I use just for what I ride.
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Unread 12-28-2009, 05:39 PM   #43
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Thanks Alene, I'm glad it was able to help you, even though I rambled some! lol

It actually contains some things which might surprise some of the people here who have known my story from the beginning, but, with the exception of a few here, I never fully share everything about myself and my experience with Sub. I try to share what is important for others to be helped by.

So I'm sure that a few of my comments might leave some wondering, but, it will simply have to stay that way.

Alene, a long time ago I decided that I was going to find out the truth about Sub and for me the only way to do that was to make myself the Guinea pig and that is exactly what I did. I wanted to learn the truth behind the success stories and the horror stories and I did.

As with most things in life this medications success depends on us and no one else. Oh we might run into a doctor who could be short on good advice, but, that is where we have to take control and learn and if need be, backup and begin again from square one.

Before I ever found this site and decided to make Sub part of my recovery I found a site which was against Sub and which told horror story after horror story. I was told for months that if I took Sub it would cause me problems down the road, it would come back to bite me and that I would be sorry.

Well 2/16/10 will make 4 years and I have yet to have any of that come true. Not only was I able to take addiction and place it in long term remission, a place where today I do not live daily threatened by it, but, I have found help for my chronic pain which does not place me at risk.

Now I was taking massive amounts of vicodin each day and spending 130,000.00 per year to support that. So I believe if I can make it, if I can reach the personal goals I have, then the next person can reach their personal goals as well. Oh their path might be a bit different than mine and they might have different obstacles, but, if we educate ourselves and learn to problem solve, we can do it. Is it easy? No, not really, not even with Sub, but, it can be more productive and progressive, if we use the education available.

ah Hell, I rambled some more. Anyway, that's how I feel about all that! lol

Mike
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Unread 12-28-2009, 05:58 PM   #44
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Hey Tommy ............... About the Sub, if your not feeling anything from it, that is good.

Listen, I don't know what your long term plans are with it and heck, you might not yet either. If it comes that at some point you want to stop taking it all together, I'm here to help and I am willing to do that one on one.

If you decide that you want to stay on it, then when the time comes (not now) if I can help you get to where I am with it, I want you to know I'm here for you.

You already know this but tackling the benzo deal is the most important in regard to recovery right now and you have been working really hard at that.

Then of course you have so many other things on your plate which have to be taken care of. Just stay strong my friend and keep moving forward as you have been! Trust God, trust the love in your heart for your children and of course for Freida and we are here for you. Be it with bike advice or tips or just a good ear to listen!

I'm sure you know this, but, the 69 Bonniville left it's mark on this nations highways! That was a good choice in machines! Anyway, I'll take my bike chat to one of your other threads so I don't screw up Tim's thread here! lol

Mike
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Unread 12-28-2009, 06:02 PM   #45
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Rambling or not, your story helps. Just as I am learning in the rooms of AA. Some things you take with you to help you along your own path of recovery, and other things well, I just leave them there.
I believe had I not found Sub. and stopped the horrible cycle I was living I would have been dead by now. My girls without a mother, and my life wasted, even though I know I have the potential and strength to do more with myself than live abusing myself on a daily basis. This medicine has given me the chance I need to re-learn life. You are right when you say that it isn't easy, but given the choice to go back to where I was, I'll choose this. Facing reality isn't aways hard. I've found more love, laughter and sunlight in the last few months than I dreamed possible.
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Unread 12-29-2009, 07:06 PM   #46
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Very well said Alene!

Suboxone helps to clear the path for us, to do the things we need to do, to heal ourselves and to gain our lives back!

So true, so true!

I also understand how it saved your life. I feel it did the same for me as well. I was on my last rung and ready to fall off.

Mike
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Unread 02-25-2010, 06:59 AM   #47
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There is no doubt in my mind that suboxone saved my life. I was suicidal and out of options when I learned about it. It gave me my life back. I was on it for 2.5 years and those were very wonderful and relatively stress free years. I did forget to take doses of suboxone and I did take more than I should have at times. I agree that the addiction doesn't go away, but suboxone makes life manageable so we can deal with it.

What I didn't do is any therapy or recovery program while I was on it. That was part my fault and part the doc because he said you couldn't go to NA while taking suboxone because it was pointless. I really wish he hadn't said that because it let me off the hook and allowed me to think the ONLY thing I needed was the suboxone. I needed a support system.

Withdrawal: I jumped off suboxone at 12mg per day. I have to say the withdrawal was fairly uncomfortable and after 5 days I did need to seek treatment for some clonodine and a few days of ativan and took restless leg medicine, etc. However, with the help of these fairly standard drugs, it made the withdrawal manageable enough so I only missed 1/2 day of work through the whole thing. How many people can say they withdrew from oxycontin or heroin and only missed one day of work????

The psychological withdrawal was by far the worse for me along with increased heartrate which I think was a result of my thoughts. It took me 6 weeks for my heart to stop pounding. But I also had the strength not to get high during this time. I NEVER could have said that about oxy withdrawal. I never made it 6 weeks of oxy withdrawal because I would be high again within 2-3 days.

In my opinion, if you do not have a support group and you do not deal with the addiction while on the suboxone, then being off will be difficult as I am experiencing now. It isn't the drug....it is MY issue and MY problem. I will be forever grateful for what this drug gave to me.
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Unread 02-25-2010, 03:20 PM   #48
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Great post Boxer!
Congratulations at being addiction free. That is amazing that you were able to stop at 12mgs!! I had to go down to 1mg every other day before I could stop. You are so right about the support and actively working a recovery. it's easy to get complacent once the cravings and withdrawal are gone, but people have to work on themselves and take advantage of being able to make changes without fighting cravings at the same time. I know in my case there was no way I could have put a resume together or found a place to live, or rebuilt my finances all between relapses and fighting cravings and withdrawal. I also know I would have relapsed for sure had I not changed my situation while on bupe. I hope people just starting read your post and realize they need to keep moving forward and that the medication is just a small part of it.
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Unread 05-05-2010, 01:01 AM   #49
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Tim, I can always count on you to make sence of things. That was a great response to the misconceptions of buprenorphine treatment. My pain Dr. always checked in with me about AA,NA,program sponsor, what step I'm on. He lead me to believe that sobrety in traditional 12-step program will always be key in his treatment of my pain. I've always been under the impression that is the cornerstone of any recovery program.
Thanks again... shaman007
I get my suboxone from The Veterans Administration Hospital. I am required to go to two relapse recovery groups a week, weekly meetings with a counselor, and they strongly encourage attendance at AA/NA meetings. I believe subs are just one part of my recovery and I could not stay in real recovery without a complete program i.e. AA, a sponsor, and counseling. That is what works for me if others can do it with just the subs well more power to them I can't.
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Unread 05-05-2010, 08:38 AM   #50
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....That is what works for me if others can do it with just the subs well more power to them I can't.
Nobody can, anyone who thinks they can recover from addiction by just taking sub is in for a big surprise. All the medication does is set the stage for recovery, the real recovery is making the long lasting positive changes that will rewire the brain and translate to healthy behaviors and sustained addiction remission. Peer support (AA/NA or online or whatever type is compatible) along with professional psychosocial care (counseling and therapy) and medical treatment (including treating related disorders like depression or anxiety) are all separate yet important components to a successful recovery.
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