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Unread 04-29-2009, 10:53 AM   #101
Sugar
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Originally Posted by 365Tao View Post
Why? Why Not?[8D]
Being dependent on another opiate wasn't my ideal of freedom.Giving my power and money to a doctor isn't my ideal of freedom.Suboxone treatment is new in the U.S.They don't really know what long term effects are going to be.IMO,all this rhetoric about it healing your brain etc, is theoretical.It's not based on any science.Anyway,everyone has to come to their own truth.What worked for me might not work for you.
It definitely made my withdrawls easier but I still had withdrawls.
I remember in the early 70's that Quaalude was touted as a safe,non-addicting sleeping pill.That was a major cluster f*ck.
When Valium first came out it was supposed to be perfectly safe.Every housewife in the U.S.was popping pills."Mothers Little Helper"

The goal is to get clean.Whatever path you choose to do that is the right one.
Librium is Mother's Little Helper, not Valium. I just thought that I'd point that out.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 11:44 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by 365Tao View Post
I did a two week Suboxone taper.8,8,6,6,4,4,4,2,2,2,1,1,.2,.2....0
I felt under the weather about 2 days.I had some major sneezing,depression,lethargy & insomnia.It was nothing like going cold turkey.After about the 4th day I started back to the gym and running again.I wasn't 100% but I still went every day.Each day got better and better.I go to NA meetings at night and therapy once a week.
I would say in two weeks I was back about 80% and felt great.
I now have almost 2 years sober and clean.
I'm so grateful I didn't buy into the doctors recommendation that I stay on Sub for a year.
Thanks

How long where you on the sub.? I want to taper off too. I actually AM going to tapper off. I plan on doing this for a month or so, and this month or so of taper will be the whole time I am on subutex. I feel like I got on the subutex to avoid withdraws. I did that, now there is no reason to drag out the tex taking you know. I feel like I have 0 possiblitly of relaspe, so I'm not worried about that.
Thanks
Courtney
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Unread 05-27-2009, 10:25 PM   #103
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mstwisted1's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21630

Sunny1's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21689
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Unread 06-09-2009, 01:18 PM   #104
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Hello all, 1 year and 6 mos, clear and free on the 30th of this month! still fighting the good fight. all I need do is remember where I was at my lowest point and whatever life troubles Im having are put in perspective. I want to again express my gratitude for the help I recieved here. Had I tried to do this on my own, I wouldnt have gone to treatment, gotten off the drugs and the maintenance spin cycle, and grabbed a hold of my life. I must say, nothing of true value comes without hardwork and some pain. It was hard at first, and yeah I had days where I wanted to quit and throw in the towell but I stuck it out,followed suggestions from others and stopped doing things my way. That was a taste of the recipe to living drug-alcohol free that worked for me.
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Unread 06-12-2009, 12:16 PM   #105
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Hi all. I completed my treatment in May (last month). I started initially at 32 mg, eventually dropping to 20 for 2 years,then started tapering at my 2 yr mark in Feb. I was also able to stop drinking and quit using tobacco all at the same time. I know I owe this to my counselor, and the love of my life. And of course the people who use this site. Knowing your not alone in this battle helps so much. I didn't experience any real problems after stopping, maybe a few nights unrest, but thats the worst I can think happened. It helped that I had just met and started dating the greatest woman on earth (IMO of course.

So life is moving along full speed now, and I've never been happier. Through the counseling and the help of my girlfriend, I'm able to stay focused on positive thoughts and not let the bad days get me down anymore. I think that was the key,at least for me,to successfully complete suboxone treatment and stopping my other bad habits. I know theres always going to be a chance for relapse, but I believe I can work through any cravings should they come, no matter the circumstance.

A big thank you to Nancy for all your help, and the countless others who helped me over the past 2 years. I hope this thread keeps growing with more success stories. I've never been a big poster,so I'll stop there. I wish all of you the best, and want you to know recovery and a new life is possible. Just never ever give up trying.

Will
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Unread 07-08-2009, 09:19 PM   #106
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That's great news Will. Hearing success stories still gives me hope. I've pretty much been in the same boat...started at 32mg and now 2 yrs later down to 6mg. I've been stuck here for a while. Cant seem to get lower. Tried stopping all together and made it a couple days and gave up... anyway if you have time I sure would like to hear your taper story. Thanks

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Unread 08-10-2009, 11:48 AM   #107
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gem64's taper:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21196
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Unread 08-12-2009, 10:58 AM   #108
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I cannot believe how LONG some people have been on Suboxone! It really saddens me that the medical community does not know what it's doing in regards to suboxone treatment.
Most people are so glad to not have to face the W/D's that they are willing to do ANYTHING! These Sub Doctors know this, and OVER PRESCRIBE THIS MEDICATION!
I started like everyone else at 16mg per day, 27 days ago. My sub doc was going to have me at this dose for 4 months, then start a two month taper............guess what?, I'm currently at day 27 an I have tapered down to 0.75 mg per day with no W/D's.
In one week (a little over one month total) I will be done!
The Longer that you stay on this stuff, the HARDER it is to get off.

Good Luck.

Gary
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Unread 08-12-2009, 11:30 AM   #109
Mike
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Gary,
I don't think you understand how addiction and this treatment works. Of coarse you can taper down without withdrawal, sub is an opioid and it doesn't increase your tolerance, so tapering quickly to low doses without withdrawal isn't that hard to do. Recovery is correcting the longterm brain damage caused by addiction, that means the compulsion to take drugs and the cravings. Those changes can't be done in a few weeks. people who taper too fast and get off, struggle with cravings and mild withdrawal for months which usually drives them to relapse. Whereas after a longterm treatment (done correctly) after you taper off you're not fighting cravings constantly because you've established new routines and rewired your brain.l

You are absolutely wrong that the longer you on sub the harder t is to get off. Unlike other opioids sub does not increase your tolerance, so your physical dependence does not increase. In fact most people find they can take less and less over time, showing that tolerance and physical dependence is decreasing.

I did both a 30 day detox with sub (that ended in relapse) and then a 3 year treatment. I had withdrawal and cravings after the 30 day tx but felt great after the 3 year treatment. I'm not saying what worked for me will work for everyone or that everyone needs three years of treatment, but it does show that your assumption is wrong, at least in my case.

Short treatments are only good for people who never crossed over into full blown addiction, if they are only physically dependent then they just need a taper aid, but probably could have taper their DOC and didn't need sub in the first place.

check out the info at www.naabt.org for more information about it. Education is humbling, you might find out that the doctors know more than you think.
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Unread 08-12-2009, 12:50 PM   #110
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Hi Gary, and welcome to addiction survivors! I am glad that you found suboxone treatment! I hope your short treatment will be effective, everybody is different and maybe it will work for you to stay addiction free. But I did want to clear a couple of things up that you said. First of all, it is simply NOT true that the longer one stays on sub the harder it is to get off. That is an old wives tale that is not supported by clinical research. The whole purpose of suboxone treatment is to alleviate withdrawals and cravings while allowing the patient to work on other things in their life that led them to addiction, the behaviors, mental work, triggers, etc. A short treatment period simply does not allow the time necessary to make the other necessary changes-that is why relapse rate is so high with the short term suboxone treatment.(or with any other short term treatment, ie: rapid detox) Suboxone is only one tool that needs to be used with other things like groups, meetings, therapy, and support in order to achieve recovery that is lasting. It sounds like you are very successful in your "fast taper", but I am worried about what you will do once you are done with the suboxone if you have done no other "fixing".

I hope you will read through more on this site and maybe it will give you a better perspective on how to successfully use medication-assisted treatement. Suboxone does seem like it is a "miracle" medicine, but I can assure you it is not a "magic pill".
Best wishes, and keep us posted.

Nan
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Unread 08-12-2009, 04:28 PM   #111
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Gary,
I was on sub for 7 years and tapered off a year ago this week. I was on 16mgs for most of that time but needed less and less the longer I was on. When I tapered off I hardly noticed it. I went very slowly, which I recommend. But its not true that its harder to get off of the longer you're on it, I'm proof.

Short treatments don't usually work for people who are addicted. It takes time to become addicted and it takes time to become unaddicted. Suboxone just stops the cravings and withdrawal so you can change things in your life and eliminate the things that cause stress, anxiety and anything else that would make you want to do drugs.

I was really messed up so I needed along time to fix my life, not everyone will need that much. One month isn't enough time to change much, usually people who are only in treatment that long either taper off and have bad cravings and relapse or they do well and could have just tapered off their drug of choice and didn't need sub in the first place.

I hope you don't feel like people are jumping all over you for making the statement "The Longer that you stay on this stuff, the HARDER it is to get off." but its wrong and people come to this board for accurate info and I wouldn't want anyone to think that this was true and not start a medication that might save their life like it saved mine.

If you do well after you taper, congratulations, but if not consider getting back on until you can make changes in your life. Don't think it will be hard to get off of just stop the addiction and get your life back. Good luck.
Sub
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Unread 08-13-2009, 12:26 AM   #112
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It seems like every forum has its own "Principle Belief" when it come s to Suboxone treatment & tapering methods. I cannot in all honesty believe that ANYBODY needs to stay on this drug for 1,2, 3, 4 ,or 5 years. I'm sorry, but I have researched this stuff to the hilt over the past month, and this is the ONLY forum that believes that its OK to stay on this stuff for years. I have 15 years sobriety from alcohol as of this date. I started abusing my pain killers about a year ago. I have four bulging discs in my lower back, and spinal arthritis, so I did not take Hydro just for kicks. I am 46 years old. I have probably been to more meetings than most of you combined. I still have a sponsor for AA that I keep in touch with, and work the steps with.. I haven't blown my AA sobriety, but I will not acknowledge my alcohol sobriety until I am off the Suboxone. That day will be day ONE sober....period! I will not be C & S until I am OFF this drug that so many of you cling to. I have attended NA meetings while on this treatment. I have been around the block just as many times as you people.....maybe even more. The hardest part of sobriety is the mental part. I believe that Doctors prescribe this drug without knowing what they are doing. THEY are not the addicts! THEY see people beg them for Bupe. I am not saying that they are evil. But they tend to clump ALL addicts into one great big pile & give the default 16mg for 4 months & then a two month taper.
The LONGER you stay on Sub, the LONGER it takes to taper! That is what I should have stated in my earlier post. WHY stay on this EXPENSIVE & POWERFUL drug longer than you need too? Explain that to me. I plan on staying clean and sober for as long as I can. Hopefully foreever. One day at a time. That means going to meetings, having a sponsor, being a sponsor, doing H & R work, they whole smear.
Again, I appreciate your comments, and It takes a lot more than telling me that I am wrong to hurt my feelings. I know that people stay on this drug because they are AFRAID of the W/D's. ! You know it, and I know it. If you are on Sub for a year, its going to take 3 or 4 months to taper. Why wait so long? I cannot wait to get off this crap. It makes me lethargic after each dose, sometimes my ankles swell up from water retention, it screws with my eyesight sometimes, and my libido has nose dived ever since my first dose. These are all common side effects of suboxone. I looked it up. No thanks, I'll take clean & sober over suboxone use any day of the week

Gary

I forgot to mention:

I called my sub doc last week, and he asked me how come I missed my appointment. I told him that I had tapered down to 1.25 mg, and did not see any sense in clogging up my insurance with an unneeded doctor visit. His response to this was......what?!
I again informed him that the dose that he was prescribing me was WAY too high, and I took it upon myself to start my own taper plan. His second response was.....are you sure that you are not taking the pain pills again?!
See what I mean? Do you SEE what I'm talking about here?
I informed him that, no, I am not "back on the hydro". He ended the conversation by scolding me, and informing me that he was the Doctor, and I was the patient, and that HE knows what is best for me. I ended the conversation by thanking him for his service, and reminding him that I know what's best for me, not him.
I encourage all to seek their own truth. For me, the truth of the matter is that Subpxone is a good remedy for W/D's in the SHORT term, not the long. Just my opinion. Maybe some people need to be coddled, and stay on this drug longer than me. I was only on hydros for a little over a year. Maybe some people that have been slamming H, or popping Oxy's like Rush Limbaugh for years, need to stay on it a little longer. But no one can explain to me one good reason why anyone has to stay on sub for 6 months or more. There is no good reason for it. You can jump off this stuff, and start you sober recovery sooner, if you get OFF of it sooner. As far as I'm concerned, you are STILL on drugs if your on sub! It's an opiate, and It is a powerful one at that. Just my two or three cents. Take Care
Gary
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Unread 08-13-2009, 07:32 AM   #113
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Congratulations! Best of luck to you.
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Unread 08-13-2009, 08:52 AM   #114
Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
.... But no one can explain to me one good reason why anyone has to stay on sub for 6 months or more. There is no good reason for it.
Nancy posted this to you in your other thread. It explains exactly why long term treatments have greater success rates.

"Here's a thread called: Why are short-term treatments less effective?
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14118 "
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Unread 08-13-2009, 08:54 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
It seems like every forum has its own "Principle Belief" when it come s to Suboxone treatment & tapering methods. I cannot in all honesty believe that ANYBODY needs to stay on this drug for 1,2, 3, 4 ,or 5 years. I'm sorry, but I have researched this stuff to the hilt over the past month, and this is the ONLY forum that believes that its OK to stay on this stuff for years.
IÂ’ve studied buprenorphine for years, and not just on forums, but from real credible science. I can tell you that long term, treatments are very appropriate for some people, me included, I was on sub for 3 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
I am 46 years old. I have probably been to more meetings than most of you combined.
Ya, it sounds like it, IÂ’m hearing echoes of AA throughout your post, except that its AAs sentiments from about 20 years ago, now AA has a better understanding of medication-assisted treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
I still have a sponsor for AA that I keep in touch with, and work the steps with.. I haven't blown my AA sobriety, but I will not acknowledge my alcohol sobriety until I am off the Suboxone. That day will be day ONE sober....period! I will not be C & S until I am OFF this drug that so many of you cling to.
We talk about this a lot here, people who get confused between addiction free and “clean and sober”. Some 12 steppers are more concerned with chips and steps, than with addiction remission and they basically cut off their nose despite their face. What matters is ending the compulsive behavior and Suboxone does that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
I believe that Doctors prescribe this drug without knowing what they are doing. THEY are not the addicts! THEY see people beg them for Bupe. I am not saying that they are evil. But they tend to clump ALL addicts into one great big pile & give the default 16mg for 4 months & then a two month taper.
ArenÂ’t you clumping all doctors into one group? Exactly what you are accusing them of doing. I donÂ’t know ANY doctors who automatically dose people at 16mgs or none that limit or mandate treatment to 4 months. Doctors are trained to tailor treatment to the individual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
The LONGER you stay on Sub, the LONGER it takes to taper! That is what I should have stated in my earlier post.
Not true. That is just as wrong as your earlier post. Where did you do your one month of study, chat rooms? The length of taper is NOT dependent on how long you have been on buprenorphine. In order for a taper off any opioids to be comfortable/tolerable you need to pace the taper with your brain’s ability to adapt. Since everyone‘s brain is different with different amounts of preexisting adaptations, this varies from patient to patient.



Quote:
Originally Posted by garysremodel1 View Post
WHY stay on this EXPENSIVE & POWERFUL drug longer than you need too? Explain that to me. I plan on staying clean and sober for as long as I can. Hopefully foreever. One day at a time. That means going to meetings, having a sponsor, being a sponsor, doing H & R work, they whole smear.
Nobody is saying stay on it any longer than needed, where did you get that idea from? We’ve said for years that people should only stay on as long as they need to and not a day longer. You seem to think people who are on it longterm could stop and just be fine, well many of us tried that and relapsed. We know that we need it until we’ve reversed the brain changes caused by our addiction, that’s what recovery is, correcting the brain changes. If you don’t address the brain changes you end up white knuckling it one day at a time through life while working endless steps between relapses, and attending nightly meetings. That’s fine if that’s how you want to spend your life, but I wanted to be like I was before. I wanted my old lifestyle not a “joe recovery” lifestyle, but to each his own. Now after tapering off 3 years ago after a 3 years of treatment I don’t have cravings, don’t go to meetings, its like addiction was never a part of my life. Am I in denial? No, just back to normal.

Click on this link and read it, and maybe you’ll see that one month of “research” doesn’t qualify you to decide what’s right for everyone and that all doctors are wrong. The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment
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Unread 08-13-2009, 11:39 AM   #116
garysremodel1
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Man, you guy's stick together like glue! Good for you. I like to see unity. This forum isn't sponsored by the Physician's Suboxone Council, is it? .....just kidding..???
You folks sure do show your Sub Doc's a lotta love! Are you on some kind of payroll?...Again.....kidding!!!
Who am I to challenge your authority on the subject of Suboxone Addiction?..... That's what it IS you know. They have detox after detox that include SUBOXONE ADDICTION for people who CAN"T GET OFF SUBOXONE!!......or did you not know that? Y'all seem to know everything else about addiction.
Obviously I am an intruder in your little forum. You do not wish to be shown reality. My insight into the world of quick suboxone tapering does not interest you. In fact, the mere idea of it seems to disgust all of you. I really like the "Joe Recovery" line. I'll use that one at my next NA meeting. Thanks!
You guys take care, and get off that crap as soon as you can. Your just fooling yourself.

Best of Luck,

Gary
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Unread 08-13-2009, 11:59 AM   #117
Mike
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sure Gary, its everyone else who's wrong, us who have been through it, the doctors, the scientists,everyone but Gary and his drug addict friends, they all know better. I tried to help you but you are content being ignorant. Good luck to you.
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Unread 08-13-2009, 12:02 PM   #118
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I find it fascinating that the anti-science people are also rude and arrogant. They come to a support board and get all pissed off and insulting when they find out they donÂ’t know as much as they thought they did. Thanks for your great advice Gary! Did you know in the 1940Â’s there was bunch on know-it-alls that said penicillin was bad because it was made from mold and mold is bad. This kind of simplistic thinking trails any development, some learn and benefit some resist and are miserable.

Gary,
Obviously your mind is closed and made up. The sad part is you sound too arrogant to even consider that you might not know it all, and if you happen to be one of those people who could benefit from longer term treatment, you wonÂ’t do it and choose to suffer instead. ThatÂ’s fine think what you want. The rest of this post isnÂ’t for you but for anyone who is deciding what is right for them or came here for thoughtful, accurate answers and stumbled across your posts.

Yes we all know there are scams out there that take advantage of peopleÂ’s ignorance about addiction and sell detox services for tens of thousands of dollars to people who donÂ’t need it.

Sarah


HereÂ’s what Gary doesnÂ’t understand about addiction and Suboxone.



Is buprenorphine addictive?
Although there is the potential for addiction to buprenorphine, the risk is low. Few people develop the dangerous uncontrollable compulsion to buprenorphine that we know as addiction. Buprenorphine will maintain some of a patient's existing physical dependence to opioids but that is manageable and can be resolved with a gradual taper once the patient is ready.

Amazingly despite 100% of people being treated for addiction with buprenorphine have demonstrated that they have a greater vulnerability to opioid addiction than the average person, very few become addicted to the buprenorphine, meaning very few lose control of their medication intake, nor experience uncontrollable compulsions and cravings toward the buprenorphine.

People can become addicted to anything that causes pleasure; consider gambling, sex, food, and internet. There is even a condition where patients drink so much water they dilute their blood, causing some level of intoxication (hyponatremia). They are addicted to this behavior, although water is not considered addictive. Substances and activities all have some potential addiction liability. Many factors including genetics and environment contribute to someoneÂ’s potential of becoming addicted

The brain has a natural reward system that helps us to learn that things that cause pleasure are good and should be repeated. This helps our species survive by reinforcing the desire for food and sex. These activities initiate a biochemical sequence and release dopamine in the brain. This feels good and is reinforced when repeated. Some substances can trick the brain and initiate the same biochemical sequence, but to a greater and unnatural degree. The brain senses this activity as the most pleasurable and hence the most necessary for survival, and creates a memory of the activity and cravings for more. The cycle reinforces itself and can lead to addiction (uncontrollable dangerous compulsive behavior)
Research has shown that substances that reach the brain faster have a higher potential for addiction. Also substances that provide a stronger effect cause more reinforcement. This begins a cycle of euphoria then craving then euphoria, craving and so on. Each time the cycle completes it reinforces a memory in the brain, the more frequent the cycle the more reinforcing.
The potential for addiction has to do with 3 main things, the speed of the onset, the level of reinforcement (pleasure), and the duration of action. IV heroin, is fast acting, strong euphoria, short duration. This gives it a high potential for addiction. Drugs with short intense cycles provide more potential for addiction than drugs with long “flatter” cycles.

Buprenorphine has a slow onset, mild effect, and long duration, which puts it at some risk of being addictive, more than water, but less than full agonist opioids, like heroin, morphine, oxycodone, and hydrocodone.
In countries where only Subutex is available (buprenorphine without the naloxone safeguard added), some people have injected their buprenorphine, thus decreasing the onset time and increasing euphoria, this in turn increased the potential for addiction and thus more people became addicted to it. The risk of addiction is less when taken sublingually as directed.


Further reading: Drug delivery methods, ranking addiction potential.
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Unread 08-13-2009, 01:25 PM   #119
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Gary is just the type of closed minded individual, (a slave to meetings, and steps and slogans, who is basing his entire life and well being on a book written in the 1930’s,) that reminds me of why it is that I will never go to an AA meeting again.

He is the perfect example of someone who is completely brainwashed and not able to think for himself anymore. (So, I guess he can’t totally be blamed him for his ignorance!)

Quoted form Garysremodel1:
I started abusing my pain killers about a year ago. I have four bulging discs in my lower back, and spinal arthritis, so I did not take Hydro just for kicks. I am 46 years old. I have probably been to more meetings than most of you combined. I still have a sponsor for AA that I keep in touch with, and work the steps with.. I haven't blown my AA sobriety, but I will not acknowledge my alcohol sobriety until I am off the Suboxone.”

I hate to break it to you Gary, but you HAVE blown your AA sobriety!! I see how well AA is working for you after 15 years!! OF COURSE you have blown your sobriety! Your probably not even suposed to take cough medicine, yet alone abuse your Hydro! You better go back to Step number 1 if you don't even realize that.

Just another brainwashed (and probably jealous) cult member!

Last edited by MicheleJ; 08-13-2009 at 01:40 PM..
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Unread 08-13-2009, 02:51 PM   #120
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Hey, Gary, just wondering, maybe you would have been a better candidate to just have tapered down on your hydros. For some people that is a better choice than going on suboxone-and maybe that would have been a better choice in your situation. I am curious as to how you plan to deal with your pain issues if you do not take suboxone or any other pain medication. This site is based on clinical research and scientific reports. Of course, individuals do give their advice and opinions and state what has worked, or not worked, for them. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and you certainly have stated yours, as each of us has also. No need for any defensiveness-it just has been proven to be true that if one is "addicted", look up the definition, then the brain does undergo changes that need time and effort to return to "normal". That is a statement of fact that is backed by clinical research and documented. It sounds as if you chose suboxone just to avoid withdrawals and you might have been much better off to just have tapered your hydros if you were only "dependent", look up definition, and not "addicted". There is a big difference. I wanted to respond to you because if you did have an addiction to hydros then you will continue to have a very difficult time once you are off suboxone if you have not worked on other things. Of course, the choice is entirely up to you as to how you deal with your issues, but I hope you will keep updating us as you continue your taper, and as you continue your journey. It would be quite interesting to hear how your story ends. You see, many of us have been here for a few years and have heard similar stories to yours that have not ended up positively, in fact, I have not heard of one. That is why so many have responded because we want you to be successful and we worry when we hear such distortions, and rationalizations, as that does not lead to success. But, I wish you well and hope all works out however you want it to.

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Unread 08-15-2009, 11:13 PM   #121
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I believe we all have the same goal. As long as we reach that goal, who cares how we get there......as long as we get there, and remain there, and can learn from others along the way.
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Unread 09-07-2009, 09:24 PM   #122
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kristine777's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=22373
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Unread 09-27-2009, 05:16 PM   #123
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This is a very sad line of postings. This is supposed to be a support community, and as long as we all get to where we are today (wanting recovery and working towards it)...judgement should not be passed on how one does it. I personally have failed several times doing the rapid taper and just quit after 7 months of Sub. I dont know if this was better or worse, but I definitely feel like I gave both options a try. So as an impartial party, I can see both sides of this conversation. Rapid detox did not work for me because after the withdrawls the addiction was still there...the need for taking something to feel "normal". So this time I took my time....7 months with what I felt was the proper taper. I felt that I was down to such a low dose, I couldnt possibley feel any withdrawls and I didnt feel the need to get high anymore so I felt it was time to stop. I was soooo scared to stop. I felt so normal on the Sub, even .5 mg once a day for the past month. I didnt feel the need to take the Sub everyday I just did. By habit, when I woke up in the morning it was the first thing I did after brushing my teeth. Now the habit has stopped, I feel like my best friend moved away. Depression, lose of appetite, lethargy, insomnia, diarrhea. Not nearly as bad as withdrawls for hydros, but still there. Every morning I wake up worry about how I am going to feel today. I can't help but wonder if I should of stayed on that long. How long will this feeling last? I cry at the drop of a hat, and yes I am on antidepressants and in therapy. So is it the habit (psychological) that is making me feel this way, or is it withdrawls from Sub? Habits are hard to break, and taking Sub turns into a habit just like anything else you do on a daily basis, the only difference is that you dont need to keep increasing your dose. Your pockets are still empty from treatment. I hope this doesnt bring up contraversial conversation. Im just spilling my guts and wondering...

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Unread 11-29-2009, 11:59 AM   #124
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Hi All,
I've been on and off sub 5years. Because of sub I got my life and work back. The stomach problems have driven me back to brief stints on smack. I'm tired of the side effects. I'm on 6mgs after a five day slip 2 weeks ago and trying to go down quickly for a complete jump at x-mas since I have time off. The longest clean time I've had was almost 2 years and I locked myself in my condo for a few days coming off a nice 6month heroin run so I think I can do a quick sub detox. Oh I do meetings and have a sponsor. Any comments?
PoppLVR Pete
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Unread 11-29-2009, 12:37 PM   #125
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Hi 1poppylover-You say, "Because of sub I got my life and work back...", so I am wondering just why you want to do a quick sub detox. You also said you have been on and off sub for 5 years. Just maybe this time if you use sub a little longer and work at the programs you might end up having long term success. Some folks have taken sub for years because it has helped them live a normal life. IMO the goal should be addiction-free, not drug-free. Lots of people take drugs for many different medical conditions and suboxone is no different-addiction is a medical condition that can be treated! It just seems to me that you have had a rocky time the last 5 years and there is treatment available to smooth out your life. So, I am glad you came on here to talk with us and ask for comments. This is a great place to talk and share information. Welcome aboard!

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Unread 01-18-2010, 07:52 AM   #126
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kirbinkie's thread: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=23156
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Unread 01-25-2010, 06:21 PM   #127
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Hey psyop6. I'll tell you how I was able to get 20 months of free meds. I needed to switch from methadone (clinic problems) to sub and I started by calling all the available sub doctors in town. There were 5. I asked all of them if they participated in the needy meds program and they said they didn't participate in any of the free meds programs. Ok, so I picked a doctor anyway and after 3 weeks I told him I knew of a program where I could get my meds free and that I would be willing to do all the paper work. He was ok with that as long as I did ALL the paper work. I was able to get a copy of the application and all he had to do was sign it and fax it. I got a year's meds and then re-applied for a second year. He stopped me after 9 months into my second year (thats another story). Anyways, thats how I did it. Good luck.
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Unread 02-17-2010, 07:36 PM   #128
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estawon's thread:
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Unread 04-01-2010, 07:29 AM   #129
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Unread 04-10-2010, 01:09 PM   #130
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When I wanted to get off Sub (which in my opinion is one of the worst drugs ever created) I got no help from my prescribing doctor. He told me to go from 8mg to 4 mg then stop. Obviously this didnt work and I was in his office about to have a seizure and I got an emergency refill. I asked for 2mg tabs. It has taken me 2 months but I am now down to .5 mg per day. Tomorrow is my last .5. Even though I have tapered very slowly I still have restless legs and lethargy. I suppose I will have that for 3-4 more days, maybe a week. The sites all say that sub is a 30-1 ratio with morphine (30 times stronger) Bullcrap! I can tell you and my doc agreed that its more like 60-1. When I read that some folks are prescribed 24 or 32 mgs per day I am just amazed. If you get in an accident or have to have surgery you will be unable to get pain relief through traditional means. (opiates) I will tell you why IMO this is an awful drug. First, the reasons stated above. Second, it doesnt give you any kind of high. How is this helping me? I'm addicted to a drug that does not relieve my pain, does not buzz me, and is extremely potent. It just doesnt make sense. I have stenosis, arthritis, and bulging discs. Thats how I got hooked on vikes to begin with. Then I became addicted to the high. Anyways, thats all I wanted to say. If I could do it all again I would NEVER get on Sub. Thank you for listening.
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Unread 04-10-2010, 02:56 PM   #131
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Quote:
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When I wanted to get off Sub (which in my opinion is one of the worst drugs ever created) I got no help from my prescribing doctor. He told me to go from 8mg to 4 mg then stop. Obviously this didnt work and I was in his office about to have a seizure and I got an emergency refill. I asked for 2mg tabs. It has taken me 2 months but I am now down to .5 mg per day. Tomorrow is my last .5. Even though I have tapered very slowly I still have restless legs and lethargy. I suppose I will have that for 3-4 more days, maybe a week. The sites all say that sub is a 30-1 ratio with morphine (30 times stronger) Bullcrap! I can tell you and my doc agreed that its more like 60-1. When I read that some folks are prescribed 24 or 32 mgs per day I am just amazed. If you get in an accident or have to have surgery you will be unable to get pain relief through traditional means. (opiates) I will tell you why IMO this is an awful drug. First, the reasons stated above. Second, it doesnt give you any kind of high. How is this helping me? I'm addicted to a drug that does not relieve my pain, does not buzz me, and is extremely potent. It just doesnt make sense. I have stenosis, arthritis, and bulging discs. Thats how I got hooked on vikes to begin with. Then I became addicted to the high. Anyways, thats all I wanted to say. If I could do it all again I would NEVER get on Sub. Thank you for listening.
First off the reason someone would take bupe in the first place is to end the uncontrollable compulsive drug taking that is ruining their life and putting it at risk. People who are addicted to opioids cannot control drug intake and place themselves at risk to obtain them, bupe helps them stop this dangerous behavior almost immediately often saving their life.

Bupe does not have a linear response curve, so although it can be 20-50 times as potent as morphine at very low doses like 0.3 mgs (much lower than that prescribed for addiction), it is much less potent than morphine at high doses like 32mgs. Of course potency as compared to morphine is irrelevant anyways as the dose of bupe is matched to the persons already established level of tolerance to opioids. When this is done, patients perceive no high or impairment from the bupe.

Patient who get into an accident and need opioid pain medication can stop the bupe and switch to full agonist opioids. It will take a few days for the blocking effect of the bupe to wear off. During that time pain can be treated locally or with non-opioid medications. Avoiding a lifesaving treatment because you fear you may not get adequate pain relief in the rare chance you are in a car accident, doesnÂ’t make much sense to me.

Bupe is a tool and like any tool if itÂ’s used wrong it wonÂ’t work. Bupe suppresses symptoms of cravings and withdrawal, by your post above it looks you are looking for it to; give you a high, relieve your pain, and buzz you, all things the medication is not intended to do.

If you have a chronic pain issue, it should be treated with medications designed for pain. If you also have developed an addiction, methadone might be a better choice for you because it can effectively treat much higher levels of pain and its slow onset and long duration make its addiction liability much lower than other available opioids.

As far as tapering off of any opioid, you pace your taper with your brains ability to adapt to each dose decrease. Generally the slower and lower you can go the more comfortable the taper.

Tim
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Unread 04-22-2010, 12:52 PM   #132
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Crazylace wrote:

"If you get in an accident or have to have surgery you will be unable to get pain relief through traditional means."

This is true. But it is also true that most people who have reached the point where they need sub tx, have a huge tolerance in place and couldn't get any pain relief from "traditional" opiates anyway.
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Unread 05-31-2010, 07:14 AM   #133
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Henrys354: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24422
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=25551

05-13-1990 (Dave): http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24424

cferd: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24560
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Unread 06-19-2010, 07:05 AM   #134
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Unread 06-20-2010, 04:07 PM   #135
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OMG! My doctor gave me that story about the brain healing too. Thanks for all the support... thanks Nancy for giving me the thread to these stories. Six mls and counting.
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Unread 06-28-2010, 02:51 PM   #136
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Default great stories.i hope i can be as successful as they were

congrats to all those who have tapered off suboxone.i am also looking to taper off.i am down to just a half a pill a day.i am hoping that some day soon i can feel what they feel.i just want my life back.
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Unread 07-20-2010, 05:39 PM   #137
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Hi All. greetings from the UK. I have tapered from 10mgs to 0.4mgs which I am still on and hope to be free from it completely in the next week or so. Can't wait! It has taken me a year to do this with a couple of relapses along the way. Well done everyone who has successfully tapered off Sub, you are all an inspiration to me. Here's to being drug / med free!
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Unread 07-31-2010, 04:47 PM   #138
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jenm http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24859

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Unread 08-06-2010, 07:33 AM   #139
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Glen aka theswan aka the bear:
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adslparts:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=22100
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Unread 08-08-2010, 10:36 PM   #140
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Quote:
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Semantics.
The facts.....It's an opiate 30x stromger than morphine.Any opiate taken for a period of time will result in physical dependence.

I go to several recovery BB's and people go through a protracted w/d's and PAWS coming off this s**t more than they ever did on their DOC.

Experience is the truth.Talking down to me and throwing a bunch of scientific jargon in order to promote your agenda doesn't change the facts.

Wow! You sound just like me! I agree with you 100%! There are certainly a few peoples motives I definatley question on this site! Chew the meat and spit out the bones. There is still good info here...
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Unread 08-09-2010, 12:24 PM   #141
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You people come here armed with only partial information and think you’re uncovering some conspiracy but what you’re really doing is exposing your gap in knowledge about addiction.

“The facts.....It's an opiate 30x stromger than morphine. Any opiate taken for a period of time will result in physical dependence.”- No shit. Nobody is saying it doesn’t. But what you don’t seem to understand is that whoever takes sub is already physically dependent before they take it, so Its not the sub causing it, and the sub doesn’t make it worse. Plus its only 30-50x more potent as morphine at very low doses, much lower than is actually used for addiction, at those doses, morphine is more potent. Compare 32mgs of sub with 32 mgs of morphine.

“I go to several recovery BB's and people go through a protracted w/d's and PAWS coming off this s**t more than they ever did on their DOC.” The last time you withdrawal is ALWAYS harder than the times before. The reason people end up on sub is because its gotten so hard to withdrawal they now need medication. So if they taper off sub too soon of course they will have PAWS, but they would have whether they took the sub or not, just like people did before sub.

“Experience is the truth.” Nobodies questioning your experience, its your interpretation of the causes that are wrong.

When are you going to realize you should be listening to the people who succeeded not those who have failed?
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Unread 08-09-2010, 03:37 PM   #142
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Quote:
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You people come here armed with only partial information and think youÂ’re uncovering some conspiracy but what youÂ’re really doing is exposing your gap in knowledge about addiction.

“The facts.....It's an opiate 30x stromger than morphine. Any opiate taken for a period of time will result in physical dependence.”- No shit. Nobody is saying it doesn’t. But what you don’t seem to understand is that whoever takes sub is already physically dependent before they take it, so Its not the sub causing it, and the sub doesn’t make it worse. Plus its only 30-50x more potent as morphine at very low doses, much lower than is actually used for addiction, at those doses, morphine is more potent. Compare 32mgs of sub with 32 mgs of morphine.

“I go to several recovery BB's and people go through a protracted w/d's and PAWS coming off this s**t more than they ever did on their DOC.” The last time you withdrawal is ALWAYS harder than the times before. The reason people end up on sub is because its gotten so hard to withdrawal they now need medication. So if they taper off sub too soon of course they will have PAWS, but they would have whether they took the sub or not, just like people did before sub.

“Experience is the truth.” Nobodies questioning your experience, its your interpretation of the causes that are wrong.

When are you going to realize you should be listening to the people who succeeded not those who have failed?

For someone so far along in their recovery, that is quite one side and judgemental. Who are you talking to you?
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Unread 08-09-2010, 03:40 PM   #143
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Who is "you people"? Look in the mirror buddy! You'd think 5 yrs off sub, you'd have moved on already to higher levels of living. I know I am. Still lurking the BBs after 5 yrs. What a loser, and yes you did insult me! Worry about your own knowlege gap!

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Unread 08-10-2010, 03:12 PM   #144
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adslparts, Can you try and be nicer to people here? This is a positive support community and the people here are very helpful and nice.

Mike, thank you for sticking around and answering questions, I know many people appreciate it, I know I do!

Sarah
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Unread 08-11-2010, 11:07 PM   #145
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adslparts, Can you try and be nicer to people here? This is a positive support community and the people here are very helpful and nice.

Mike, thank you for sticking around and answering questions, I know many people appreciate it, I know I do!

Sarah
I don't call recommending methadone, or call us "you people" positive! And no, I take crap from nobody! Must by the New Yorker in me...

Quote:
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adslparts, Can you try and be nicer to people here? This is a positive support community and the people here are very helpful and nice.

Mike, thank you for sticking around and answering questions, I know many people appreciate it, I know I do!

Sarah
So his posts are nice? Sorry Sarah, you are wrong! He don't know crap and should even be allowed on this board IMO. No worries, Nancy tought me how to block the idots on this site. I don't see his posts anymore
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Unread 09-10-2010, 06:48 PM   #146
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I haven't been here in quite some time. I enjoyed the support I got here when I got on Suboxone, it was quite beneficial. Many questions answered and fears laid to rest.

My memory is not what it used to be, so I can't give details, but I'm probably a success story.

I used to shoot a lot of opiates. My doctor prescribed me only 8mg of Suboxone a day, but the small dose might be what helped me to get off it quickly. I followed another poster's prescribed plan because I didn't want a maintenance plan, I wanted to be free of opiates. That plan went something like this: 8mg for a month, 4mg for a month, 2mg for a few weeks and then just slivers for about another month. I only visited the pharmacy once for a refill. I only got 8mg's tablets and broke them up, it wasn't scientific, but it got the dose into me.

It has worked so far. I've been free of any desire to use opiates for 4 years. It's been kinda easy after the first year.

Recently an old using buddy has come to me for advice on Sub, which has put me into contact with opiates once again. Still not interested.

I came back to the forum to see if it's still here and get the URL for him. I think it'll help him to see that others are going through the same trials that he is, I know it helped me. I know he's got more questions than I can answer and I think those answers are here.

I want to say thanks for being here when needed you, for my friend who may be needing you and for everyone else who is going through opiate withdrawal.

I may come back in a few days just to check on things again -- see if my friend finds it OK...
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Unread 02-09-2011, 11:58 AM   #147
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I didnt read through all this but i didnt see where Tattoo Tommy tapered real slow ,,meetings,,counsoling ,,followed others examples and when i jumped had awful freakin wd's! Ended up gettin weak and goin back on sub,,7yrs now,,No,,i didnt see that post in here.
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Unread 02-09-2011, 12:46 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by So.Cal. View Post
I didnt read through all this but i didnt see where Tattoo Tommy tapered real slow ,,meetings,,counsoling ,,followed others examples and when i jumped had awful freakin wd's! Ended up gettin weak and goin back on sub,,7yrs now,,No,,i didnt see that post in here.
TT
Hi Tommy, it's here, post #139 on 7/31/2010:


I didn't forget you!

Nancy
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Unread 03-02-2011, 03:43 PM   #149
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Unread 04-07-2011, 07:27 AM   #150
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