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Unread 12-27-2008, 10:56 AM   #51
smokey321
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Originally Posted by 365Tao View Post
I am sure your Dr. Seems like a great/supportive/understanding person. But if they tell you that the wds from sub are going to be mild, or tell you to stay on it as long as you like, then they are misinformed. Sub wds are rarely mild and due to the extremely long life, they will last for a very long time. Most of the literature and research done on sub seem to promote this miracle pill mentality. Buprenorphine is just another opioid, and no matter what excuses you can come up with or rationalizations, this is still drug replacement therapy just like methadone. Sub has been nicknamed methadone-lite or the lesser of two evils. It is addictive and a real bitch to get off, just be aware of these factors when making a decision.
...but I'm not being paid to advocate anything
Utterly amazing.........i agree with you 100% because i went through hell when i decided to stop taking the suboxone and im back on it now cause i thought i was going to die.......yes maybe i might of stopped to soon but after reading many post i wasnt on a high dose like some of the other folks in here....i was prescribed 2mg pills and at the time i stoipped taking them i was down to .5 . maybe i wasnt ready to stop and now im trying the tapering down thing all over again and watching where i MIGHT of done something wrong.......
What blows me away is i stumbled accross this post and was amazed at the defense that some came to after "Tao" post his oppinion and maybe his experience....
some try to hard to discount his oppinion and that isnt right..i wrote in another post something similar on how i personaly felt about the drug....and i got the same response from some of the same ppl here.....
I think the new folks who come to this sight really has to keep a open mind and maybe review some post from some and come to their own conclusion......in order to give information to help you dont have to shove things down ppl throats with alot fo quotes and literatue and studies.......
its makes some wonder........

Nancy your awesome and very suttle in getting your point across and you can tell it comes from the heart not the books and reports........
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Unread 12-27-2008, 11:37 AM   #52
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Maybe you need to read the response....

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Originally Posted by TIM View Post
365Tao,
You are very misinformed. First, I think you've misread the literature because it doesn't say bupe withdrawal is mild it says the withdrawal profile is milder than full agonist opioids in controlled studies. Misinterpreting that to mean it will be mild for you will no doubt bring disappointment, especially coupled with your other misunderstandings of the treatment.

Withdrawal is caused by alterations to the brain, not the bupe. These alterations already existed before even starting bupe. In other words the potential for withdrawal already existed and is not caused by the treatment medication. (no more than insulin causes diabetes, even though symptoms return when treatment is stopped)Bupe suppresses those symptoms allowing you to do the work to change your brain back. If you don't make those changes you haven't alerted your potential for withdrawal. If you stop suppressing these symptoms with bupe before their cause has healed, symptoms will undoubtedly return and at first glance bupe could easily be mistaken for the cause.

How comfortable yours or anyone's taper will be depends on whether they have paced their taper with their brains ability to heal and did the necessary things to facilitate that healing. We've had many people, on this site, complete comfortable tapers, some from very severe longterm addictions.

People rarely get addicted to bupe and it is very different than any full agonist. If you don't understand the treatment there is no way you will develop realistic expectations. Here are some educational pieces to read. (You'll need to understand the difference between physical dependence and addiction)

difference between physical dependence and addiction
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=15332

The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence:
http://archives.drugabuse.gov/PDF/Pe...s-Neurobio.pdf

"The Science of Addiction"
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NIDA_..._addiction.pdf

TIP 40
http://www.naabt.org/links/TIP_40_PDF.pdf

Without understanding addiction and this treatment you will not be able to use it effectively. Please educate yourself about it. Education is always worth the effort especially when dealing with a life-threatening disease like addiction.
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Unread 12-27-2008, 12:19 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey321 View Post
......in order to give information to help you dont have to shove things down ppl throats with alot fo quotes and literatue and studies.......
its makes some wonder........
Are you for real? Are you actually making an argument AGAINST facts and education? I’m sorry but smart people value knowledge, are you so arrogant that you really think the literature and the studies are all wrong while Smokey is right? It’s a real tip off when I run across someone so opposed to education. Look at how well your superiority has served you so far, you had bad withdrawal and have no idea why, even though the answer has been posted here for years.

I was like you once, I knew more than the doctors and the nerdy scientists who devote their lives to studying these treatments. Yup, I knew if I could just get through 3 days of detox I’d be fine, because I used to be able to that so why not now? I’d get through the tough part, and I was doing bundles of heroin so it wasn’t an easy detox. But after a couple weeks of being depressed not sleeping, and just having a shitty life, I would take a break from my sobriety, just for one day then get right back into recovery. Well, then it would be a few days, then everyday, then every 4 hours, sound familiar to anyone. This went on for years. But I knew more than the people telling me it takes months or years of treatment for someone with my severe addiction to get better. I didn’t want a year of treatment I wanted to be done with it and move on. I knew I could do it if I was just strong enough and everything went right.

Well, like you, what I wanted and reality were two different things. I went through more wasted years of trying to stop, I even tried a 30 day bupe detox in a study, it worked for 45 days. Finally I admitted my way wasn’t working and maybe there are people out there that know more about this than I do, like the people who have been studying this their whole lives and devolved treatments. Once I admitted this and did it right my whole life changed. I’ve since taper off of bupe after a 3 year treatment and am doing all of the things I never would have done had I not smartened up and admitted that I didn’t have all the answers.

The sad thing is, that the science you scuff at smokey actually verifies your experience and explains how you could have avoided it.

Best of luck in fighting your addiction.
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Unread 12-27-2008, 02:37 PM   #54
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Mike,
Are you serious? what is it about the quote didnt you understand......are you that stuck in your own addiction that you cant read..........look before you go and attack me for you not readin what i said....go and reread it again ........
From my experience from the forum.....
when folks come on here and say "they are feeling bad" or whatever.....they are just maybe looking for a solution on how to feel better....maybe someone might have one.......eat ice cream, go lay down in front of the tv, try taking advil.....etc.......all the reports and long and drawn out response about education and studies dont solve how that person might feel at the moment........Yes it will help them understand why,when,where,. but it doesnt solve or maybe give them a immediate solution....when i found this forum i typed in "how to get ride of the shakes" into google and it led me here........i didnt come here for scientic information at the time.........yes it has made me want to read more on it but atthe time i just wanted to know if anyone had a solution.....
this is exactly what imtalkin about .....people like you mike sit at the pc all day waiting for someone to mistype one thing so you can pound your poor little chest and attack and then feel better about yourself...........
Your right about one thing,......education is important ......and u definetly missed the mark.........I shake my head in disgust at ppl like u.......so go find your next victim to try to belittle armed with the information you only gained on here........LOL......what a joke...
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Unread 12-27-2008, 02:56 PM   #55
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Oh boy ppl....here we go again.

Mike,
I read the previous msg from Smokey and he didn't say anything to offend anyone. Everyone has side affects, everyone is different. It seems that the ppl (the very smalll amount of ppl that don't have side effects) claim, for a better lack of words, that they don't know what their talking about,, their crazy.

This is so rediculous to be arguing over Sub. Yes it helps. But it can be addictive. No matter what anyone says,..it CAN be addictive. I never in any of Smokey's post see him trying to be GOD, he's only stating what he's seen on here, heard about..and is clearly stating what he has heard or knows. He is not claiming to be a doctor, expert, etc.
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Unread 12-27-2008, 03:11 PM   #56
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Thanks angiem, I appreciate you taking the time to read what i was trying to say and atleast understand im not trying ot bash anyone or anything .....I strongly believe in education of this drug and its effects on the human body...
It would be really nice to see more of these folks put in more compassion instead of so much hate.
all i can say is "Utterly Amazing" .......i need to educate myself more on the effects on herion....i guess..
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Unread 12-27-2008, 04:11 PM   #57
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Unread 12-27-2008, 04:39 PM   #58
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sorry to disappoint you .......but i dont have multiple identities.......
wow did i deserve a inquire......LOL Utterly amazing......i guess since i speak my mind it called for me to be checked out....LOL....system didnt detect it.......you had to go looking .....but i assure you i dont have dual identities .....im pretty comfy with who i am...
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Unread 12-27-2008, 05:25 PM   #59
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Thumbs up ignore list

How to add people to your ignore list:
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Great feature!!!


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Unread 12-28-2008, 12:32 AM   #60
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Sub-Zero,

Thank you very much for that info.

Scotland
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Unread 12-28-2008, 05:04 PM   #61
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The truth is, anyone can get off suboxne. It will be different for everyone. The expereince can be so diffferent from person to person that it is hard to gage what it will be like for you. One thing that is for sure, if you have a mood problem already such as bipolar disorder (any type), regular depression, GAD. and you are not medicated properly for those disorders, then you will have a very hard time getting off suboxone. Suboxone can cause severe depression on your way off and for some people it does not matter how slow you taper. Actually for some people at higher doses suboxone is supressing depression, and or causing it. My point is, if you are going very slow in your taper and it is not making things better, chances are you should consider an anti depresant, or mood stbalizer to help you through the processs. I would like to see a post of how many people are also on anti depressants and other mental health medications while on suboxone.

Some will leave that out thinking it is not that big of a deal, but I had a friend who could not get off suboxone untill he added welbutrin, after that, he started to experience more "normal" activity in regards to suboxone detox. I do firmly beleive that suboxone is a great medicine and that anyone can get off of it. I think that people who have extra trouble getting off can be helped greatly by other mental health related meds. I also know this from my own experience.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 05:10 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshfarc View Post
Did that 365tao come here looking for a fight or what? LOL

Anyway, this thread is very helpful and I have taken many people's stories into consideration while I continue my taper, thx all! So far so good!

If 365tao ever reads this....it is possible to get off suboxone quite painlessly, it's a virtue of patience. But then again, I strongly respect your strength of choosing to get off all drugs once and for all. Just keep it that way!
Not really a virtue of patients for everyone. Some will need help from other medication to deal with the emotional aspects of suboxone tapering. Not everyones brain will adapt properly on the way off suboxone. That is where antidepressants, anti-psychotics, and mood stabalizers come in. I think alot of people mistake the suboxone causing problems as opposed to a mental health disorder. I am not advocating jumping into other meds without thought. I am saying if you are having uncommon problmes getting off suboxone you may want to see a psychiatrist to help you finish the job. Of course avoid all addictive meds.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 05:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy View Post
.... One thing that is for sure, if you have a mood problem already such as bipolar disorder (any type), regular depression, GAD. and you are not medicated properly for those disorders, then you will have a very hard time getting off suboxone. ..... I think that people who have extra trouble getting off can be helped greatly by other mental health related meds. I also know this from my own experience.
That’s a great point Happy. Many patients become addicted in the first place because they are self medicating for an undiagnosed (or at least untreated) mood disorder. Besides depression as you mentioned, anxiety is another condition that might be suppressed by the bupe but will emerge when tapering and if left untreated could easily cause a relapse, or unpleasant taper. Mood disorders are very common in people with addictions to opioids, and can be very serious.

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Unread 12-30-2008, 08:33 PM   #64
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Okay so this is just a POSIBLE observation. I have noticed that a lot of the people that have horrible stories of kidking sub are on sub for things liken vicoden,loratab,or in the case below percadan. In my OPINION there is no reseon that someone should be on 32mgs of sub for a percadan adiction. Im not saying its pleasant, easy, or painless getting off things like hydrocoden but it really dosnt compare to getting off things like herion,oxy,morphine, or even possibly suboxone. Maybe,and again this is just a posible observation,they have such a hard time because they have never experienced hard withdrawl from a strong opiod. I am not saying these people dont have an addicttion, or they dont need sub as I am not a docter. I just wanted to throw that out there.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 08:59 PM   #65
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conman,
I agree with you in that some people may have never had a real detox to compare against, now couple that with an expectation that sub will be real easy to stop, now add in an especially sensitive person, and you have have all the ingredients for the mother of all withdrawal...at least in their eyes.

Since everyone absorbs different and other biological difference i can see where someone might need a dose that would seem high to someone with good absorption, so I think it's hard to judge what dose is right for who. But I agree that people with lower levels of dependencies will generally require lower doses of sub, or methadone for that matter. I like the dosing suggesting they use here which is the right dose is the lowest dose that stops cravings and withdrawal. That way the person is never getting too much or too little and as they progress in treatment and require less their dose will go down.

Some other people (like 5 vicodin/day) people shouldn't be ion sub at all, they should be forced to taper off vics or just stop and deal with the withdrawal because even a low dose of sub is probably more opioid than they were on and if some doctor thinks 16mgs is right for everyone, then they will be getting deeper into trouble with the sub.

On the other hand you could have someone with a low dependence but will take any pills they can find and are high risk of OD. Those people should be on a dose of sub high enough to block any OD attempts..its all so individual..
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Unread 12-30-2008, 10:15 PM   #66
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I agree Mike,I was on as high as 24mgs at one point. Im not here to tell ANYONE WHAT TO DO.It was just somthing I observed.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 10:46 PM   #67
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I was on 24mgs too then I dropped to 20 then 16 in fact that's pretty much how my whole treatment went, every now and then I would find I could reduce my dose and feel the same. I had come off a real bad heroin addiction and planned on staying on sub for life but as I kept going down I found at .5mgs/day I started forgetting to take it and one day realized it had been 3 days so I just stopped. I had some minor withdrawal (at least minor to me). That was over 3 years ago. I was totally content with staying on for life, but just didn't need it anymore.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 11:03 PM   #68
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that helps. my story is pretty much parallel. I started with oxys and moved to h. I was up to 24 but mostly started at 16mgs then slowly went down when I felt like it and am now down to 6mgs. So far it has been no problem but I am a little worried about when I get real low because I heard that is the hard part.
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Unread 12-30-2008, 11:08 PM   #69
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It does get harder, I found I had to slow my taper once I got down to 2mgs. I later learned that what I was doing was pacing my taper with my brain's ability to heal and adapt back to a non-addicted brain. So I was going at about 2mgs/month and took a little over 2 months to go from 2 to 0 and most of that time was going from 1 to 0. This PET scan shows that even 2mgs fills a whole bunch of receptors, so much that going from 2mgs top zero affected more receptors than going from 32mgs to 4mgs.
http://www.naabt.org/images/petscan.jpg
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Unread 12-30-2008, 11:15 PM   #70
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thanks-that was a great visualization. It makes since as far as precentiges go. Your taper sounds about like what I was thinnking but everyone is different and im trying not to stick to a set schedule.
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Unread 01-07-2009, 08:57 AM   #71
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Andrew's (werdna) story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20558
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Unread 01-09-2009, 09:55 AM   #72
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Chicagofire's story:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20615
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Unread 01-21-2009, 07:00 PM   #73
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Hats off to all who didn't taper! I tried so many times to quit but just kept tapering and then one day suboxone let me go! That is such a good feeling after a week or two and not having to take any more suboxone. Just have to remind myself no more opiate out side of a hospital bed! Even that thought scares me!
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Unread 01-22-2009, 10:59 AM   #74
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richie7's thread:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...436#post325436
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Unread 01-29-2009, 07:22 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy View Post
Not really a virtue of patients for everyone. Some will need help from other medication to deal with the emotional aspects of suboxone tapering. Not everyones brain will adapt properly on the way off suboxone. That is where antidepressants, anti-psychotics, and mood stabalizers come in. I think alot of people mistake the suboxone causing problems as opposed to a mental health disorder. I am not advocating jumping into other meds without thought. I am saying if you are having uncommon problmes getting off suboxone you may want to see a psychiatrist to help you finish the job. Of course avoid all addictive meds.
LOL.... so because sub is addictive and very strong opiate... so one continues to use dope to live. Well..... I never had depression in my life till after sub. I have use many a dope and detox many times. I would stay clean for a bit feel good, too good and then think I could play with dope again. Untill I did sub... I was never afraid of opiates. You need to go to other sites that the pharm. company is not sponsoring and see how many folk find sub very hard to detox from. I find the one that think its a good dope are still on it. Face it, a brain on opiates is a brain on opiates.

I guess sub did do me justice in that I really do fear opiates. Sub has ruin my tolerance for a simple perc. now..... so it did do something for me if that is good.? GOD help me if I ever really need pain relief that motrin can not help now... I pray daily to keep me safe.
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Unread 01-29-2009, 07:34 AM   #76
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Hi bonita, about this site: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/

AddictionSurvivors.org is a not-for-profit organization (501c3 tax exempt status pending) dedicated to providing peer support communities for those with addiction disorders and their families and friends. These forums are funded in whole by individuals whose lives have been touched by addiction in one way or another.

It is not sponsored by any pharma company.

Most people do not become addicted to Suboxone because addiction is behavior. This clarifies it:

What is addiction?
To understand fully you must be aware of the difference between tolerance, physical dependence, and addiction:

As a person takes opioids for an extended period of time, they become less sensitive to it and require more to achieve the same effect. Receptors in the brain become less sensitive. This means they need more and more opioid to achieve the same effect. This is called tolerance. When the body can no longer make enough natural opioids to satisfy the less sensitive receptors, the body becomes dependent on the external source. This is physical dependence.
"Physical Dependence" is a physiological state of adaptation to a substance, the absence of which produces symptoms and signs of withdrawal. It is possible to be physically dependent on a drug without being addicted to it. Physical dependence is the result of physical changes in the brain. It is not a matter of willpower rather it is actual physiology.
Addiction is defined as a behavioral syndrome characterized by the repeated, compulsive seeking (psychological dependence) or use of a substance despite adverse social, psychological, and/or physical consequences, along with the physical need for an increased amount of a substance as time goes on to achieve the same desired effect. Addiction is often (but not always, as with an addiction to gambling) accompanied by tolerance, physical dependence, and withdrawal syndrome.
People are dependent on water and food but are not addicted to them. If a cancer patient is taking large doses of painkillers, he/she will become tolerant and physically dependent on them (meaning they will experience withdrawal symptoms if the drug is abruptly removed) but they are not necessarily addicted to it (meaning they will not seek out the drug despite adverse consequences once the drug is no longer needed for pain).
Addiction is a disorder that requires treatment while physical dependence is not. This is important to understand in order to be able to discern between switching one addiction for another and treatment.
The American Academy of Pain Medicine, American Pain Society, and American Society of Addiction Medicine, recognizes these definitions below as the current accepted definitions.
I. Addiction:
Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiologic disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.
II. Physical Dependence:
Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.
III. Tolerance:
Tolerance is a state of adaptation in which exposure to a drug induces changes that result in a diminution of one or more of the drug’s effects over time.
Summary:
Addiction is uncontrollable compulsive behavior caused by alterations of parts of the brain from repeated exposure to high euphoric responses.
Sources:

The Essence of Drug Addiction- By Alan I. Leshner, Ph.D., Former Director, National Institute of Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Published_Articles/Essence.html
http://www.naabt.org/tl/The_Essence_of_Addiction.pdf

What’s in a Word? Addiction Versus Dependence in DSM-V - CHARLES P. O’BRIEN, M.D., PH.D. NORA VOLKOW, M.D.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/163/5/764

NIDA publication: The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment Thomas Kosten MD, Tony George MD http://archives.drugabuse.gov/PDF/Pe...s-Neurobio.pdf

The American Academy of Pain Medicine, American Pain Society, American Society of Addiction Medicine - consensus document – February 2001, http://www.painmed.org/pdf/definition.pdf
American Academy of Pain Medicine - http://www.painmed.org/
American Pain Society - http://www.ampainsoc.org/
American Society of Addiction Medicine - http://www.asam.org/

Nancy
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Unread 01-29-2009, 09:09 AM   #77
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Worth repeating ..........

Quote:
AddictionSurvivors.org is a not-for-profit organization (501c3 tax exempt status pending) dedicated to providing peer support communities for those with addiction disorders and their families and friends. These forums are funded in whole by individuals whose lives have been touched by addiction in one way or another.

It is not sponsored by any pharma company.
Good information in the post above Nancy, thank you!
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Unread 01-29-2009, 09:44 AM   #78
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OH.... so mike story though very confusing and all the advertizing for sub is just for What????

let me just say first that I am not totally against sub.. short term detox. Maintaince.... well. they will see sooner or later. There cant be so many that suffered so badly, like I, and it be all that good. Many that were part of this forum praising the sub...now where are these folk. On other site sharing what sub has done to them. you have sub doctors making folk jump off at 2 and 4 mg. Thinking no pain... ha. 8hours of class. 3 weeks after my last dose and I still had sub in my system. Its no different then Meth in my experience. I see folk in NA meeting nodding off on sub.... collecting cakes for yrs clean. I see folk on sub telling others how they are in recovery... In my mind, recovery is opiate free. Do I think there are those that never can be opiate free. YES, maybe I am one of them. I hope not. I am working so hard trying to stay opiate free.

The ones that slide by without damage... well I do believe some of them. Those on an opiate and consider themself clean.. well, what a joke. They do not know what clean is.

a brain on an opiate is a brain on an opiate.

Just love it when I see Ohio Mike on a detox forum talking recovery.... I giggle at his empty comments.

Happy melting. LOL
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Unread 01-29-2009, 10:02 AM   #79
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Quote:
""Most people do not become addicted to Suboxone because addiction is behavior. This clarifies it:""


Nancy .............. IMO ..................... It seems at times people either forget or simply misunderstand the purpose of this medication. It was created to be taken by those who already suffer from the disease of addiction. It is formulated to not build tolerance. Just these two simple facts explain how it is not addictive to those who are expected to be taking it. First we were already addicted and second, it does not build tolerance and actually is designed to be tapered off of, a step down process.

Now of course if a person takes this medication who has clean time behind them or are opiate naive, then the results are different, because that changes who is expected to be taking this medication.

My situation is a good example of how it is meant to work. I went from taking well over 100 vicodin per day to 1/2mg of Sub per day. So the simple question is, what took place? What changed? What permitted me to do that?

I went from being a vicodin popping vegetable being 100% unproductive, spending tens of thousands of dollars, to being productive, active and proactive. What changed? What took place?

Anyway Nancy, thanks again for such good information and giving me a reason to share this.

Mike
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Unread 01-29-2009, 10:26 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by bonita View Post
let me just say first that I am not totally against sub.. short term detox. Maintaince.... well. they will see sooner or later. There cant be so many that suffered so badly, like I, and it be all that good. Many that were part of this forum praising the sub...now where are these folk. On other site sharing what sub has done to them. you have sub doctors making folk jump off at 2 and 4 mg. Thinking no pain... ha. 8hours of class. 3 weeks after my last dose and I still had sub in my system. Its no different then Meth in my experience. I see folk in NA meeting nodding off on sub.... collecting cakes for yrs clean. I see folk on sub telling others how they are in recovery... In my mind, recovery is opiate free. Do I think there are those that never can be opiate free. YES, maybe I am one of them. I hope not. I am working so hard trying to stay opiate free.

The ones that slide by without damage... well I do believe some of them. Those on an opiate and consider themself clean.. well, what a joke. They do not know what clean is.

a brain on an opiate is a brain on an opiate.
Hi Bonita, I'm sorry you had a difficult time on Suboxone and unfortunately went to a doctor who wasn't very good or helpful.

Patient education and realistic expectations are integral parts of the process. As has been said, the problem is the addiction. The uncontrollable compulsive behavior despite negative circumstances that needs to be stopped. If you don't think that being addiction-free is a worthy goal, then that's fine, I understand. But there are others who think that taking a medication to treat a medical condition is a worthy goal. Then once they're ready physically and psychologically, they then proceed further into the process to become medication free also.

With addiction, knowledge is power. Also with addiction, there are as many paths as there are individuals.

Best wishes.

Nancy
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Unread 01-29-2009, 11:07 AM   #81
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Hi Nancy ............... Well described.

Thankfully the medical field and addiction specialists are evolving in the fashions which you have described. I watched for years as many people suffered continually going in and out of the doors of recovery, never being able to find a comfortable seat. Even after obtaining good 'clean' time behind them, they would begin the cycle over. Then others who were able to stop that process, but, never really settled into a comfortable life in recovery, it was always a struggle, a constant daily / weekly fight to hang on to the 'clean' time, while other aspects of life never improved.

The true battle of this disease is not found in the detox period of stopping a drug. It is found in changing and healing from the mental, social and emotional aspects of this disease. They are the aspects which will haunt us for years to come, if we cannot put them to rest and rise above them properly.

Each persons situation is different, each person is different. The road of recovery will be different for each person. The goal IMO is to put the mental, social and emotional aspects to rest. We each will do that differently and we each may have other issues which will need to be addressed to achieve that.

Sadly too many people within the recovery community spend too much time on picking each other apart instead of supporting each other, simply because they feel their way of recovery is the only right way to do it. Isn't it bad enough that we must always battle the stigma of society, why should we have to battle the same hardship from the very ones who we should be able to turn to for support and understanding?

The same sadly is found in those who don't like 12 step programs. They spend more time bitching about them and knocking the people they should be supporting or just the opposite, those in the 12 step programs who feel that only their way is correct and they banish anyone who finds other answers.

Acceptance is not limited. Further, if we cannot accept each other how can we expect to accept ourselves correctly? Thankfully many are changing as the understanding of this disease changes and progresses. Thankfully more are getting more rounded care and treatment as the understanding of this disease evolves. But sadly some people simply are more worried about being right and proving that to themselves, than supporting another. Thankfully they are becoming the minority. No one has a blue print to recovery in spite of what they might think.
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Unread 01-29-2009, 11:18 AM   #82
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You know...... I wrote to the company who "teaches" doc's to rx sub.. My doc put me on 40 mg and told me to take Meth the day before. There response was "we do not get involved in Md treatment regime". I suffered for three days. Stupid me I continure. LOL..... so much for teaching the doc's about sub. My guess is that they make a lot of money from this doc. THis doc gave me a rx for 150 pills of 8mg and 200 2mg pill. That allowed me to wean without paying another 250 to him,,,, the quack.

Ohio mike..... one question for you? Why are you posting on a detox forum but refuse to say what your ingesting? Are you ashame? If its because it a detox forum and your not planning a detox, why post there?
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Unread 01-29-2009, 11:57 AM   #83
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You know Nancy, vicodin wasn't bad. How it was prescribed to me and of course how I took it was what created the problems. Your comment that knowledge is power is so true. Had I not let those two things happen, I would not have suffered what I did. Thankfully I was blessed and did not repeat that mistake when I chose Sub as part of my personal recovery plan. And that was no great insight or doing on my part, I believe it was God doing for me. But, frankly and you know how I feel about this, too many of these damn doctors are the reason people have problems with Suboxone. People rely on the doctors to properly inform them and to properly direct them. Yes, we should be and we are responsible for this as well, but, it is only natural that we count on them (doctors), that is why we are hiring them and become their patient.

All these years of reading personal stories here, many of them which have problems have a common theme, terrible professional care or not enough professional care in the beginning of the process. Naturally this is merely my opinion, but, I see it as one of the single biggest problems, along with rumors which lead to unreasonable expectations, either pro or con. One of the personal beliefs I have had due to my own experience is that the better start / induction and first 30 days a person can have with this medication, the better their overall experience can be. Of course in my mind that is a very structured beginning and extends past just how Sub is taken and the understanding of Sub. It goes beyond that.

So yes, knowledge is power and equally so is the desire to gain understanding!
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Unread 01-29-2009, 11:32 PM   #84
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Nancy, it has been a 36+ year journey for me and it has now come full circle twice. Both rounds were unique and both shared many similarities. Learning to combine the lessons and assets of both rounds and learning to problem solve with a completely open mind has been the two things which have proved to be the most useful. Without the foundation of the first round, I would have fallen victim to my own fears and many rumors during this second round. Thankfully the rumors only served as keys to more exploration and interesting questions, when answered or at least understood empowered me to keep progression in the forefront, fears on the shelf and life out in front of me, just begging to be lived.

I find it odd when understanding, education and problem solving is labeled as denial, sugar coating or flat out lies. I guess I fail to understand such logic. We are taught both at home and in school from very young ages that all three are keys to success!

Maybe it stems more from ones own inner fears and personal insecurity that they find comfort in such conclusions.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 11:13 AM   #85
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Hello Bonita

What another person does or does not do is not your business. Live and let live is a slogan as is "keep the focus on yourself" and most important ( as I see it ) "To thine own self be true". The latter is written on the many coins I have in a little wood box.

I as well as Mike ( If you don't mind me saying, Mike ) suffer chronic pain along with issues of addiction. I have been a member of a twelve-step fellowship for many years and have had my share of "pristine" sobriety. An auto accident in 1990 changed many things. My "choice" to use opioids to alleviate my pain was thought out and discussed with a "sponsor". Do you think for a moment this was an easy choice? Did I think "oh joy-joy! now I can get high!" No, it was a hellish choice but perhaps not really a choice at all. Thoughts of suicide came to be weekly if not daily and I could no longer function well. The opioids allowed me to function.

Sadly, opioids have a way of building up a tolarance. This and the fact of my addictive nature being an alcoholic, conspired to cause misery.

I searched the web looking for a safe narcotic as I knew that only an opioid could relieve the pain I had. I also sadly knew the awful drawbacks. One day I hit upon a clinical trial of suboxone and voila! here I am!

I have a lot of good things to say for suboxone and owe a lot to the people here as well as the folks that took great risks to produce this medication.

I was never lied to about the risks of suboxone; To the contrary, the folks here as well as my doctor's made me a very informed patient.

Bonita, to say " I giggle at his empty comments" is not only worlds away from the truth, it seems to be intended to be hurtful. Is this a statement of one in "recovery"?
Gee, it seems to me to be coming from a place of igrorance and anger.
Maybe you can read this maybe not as you are blocked but I still wanted to post my thoughts,

Glen
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Unread 01-30-2009, 12:18 PM   #86
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By the way,

I revisited that other forum. Oy vey! I found that site useful and have had warm exchanges with several of it's members.

The Admin. there has just issued a warning because of some members who are not being helpful. These members are instead full of rage and misinformation. Personal attacks are being made and it is not at all helpful.

I am happy to see this forum is "tight" and discussions rarey fall into disarray.
I try and hold my tounge and not respond to attacks. I felt I had to in this case and I will resolve to bite my tounge in the future and ignore such rants.

Mike has offered so much in helping others that it hurt me to see him so unjustly attacked so I felt the urge to counter. As I said, I will practice my resolve.

Glen
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Unread 01-30-2009, 12:50 PM   #87
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Thank you Glen.

Thankfully for myself today I can live a life in active recovery and not in active addiction. This doesn't eliminate all of the other health issues, but, it enables me to now properly address them in a proactive fashion, instead of slowly killing myself and honestly my family with the disease of addiction.

And thankfully for all of us, the understanding of this disease and recovery from it keeps progressing and evolving, creating better therapy options and medical treatments.

Unfortunately for everyone in the recovery community these progressions seem to cause distress in some.

Glen, you have learned what I have and no, it was not an easy lesson, nor easy to accept, that we must live the recovery which is best for us. That no recovery is perfect and that there is no blue print or text book recovery. But that today we can live free of the monster and live in active recovery and at the very least have control now over the course our lives take. And it doesn't have to work for anyone else but each of us, individually. We can only pray for the others who seem to struggle with our choices.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 01:02 PM   #88
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Talking wait till you wean

wait till is time to wean.... and yes. My care from my sub quack was very bad. Great way to pay house note.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 01:10 PM   #89
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Quote:
By the way,

I revisited that other forum. Oy vey! I found that site useful and have had warm exchanges with several of it's members.
Glen,

I too have found nice people there and useful information. In fact, I found that forum many months before I found this one, more than 3 years ago. Sadly some feel the personal need to attack others solely because they do not feel that the personal recovery plans conform to their personal bias.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 01:23 PM   #90
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wait till is time to wean.... and yes. My care from my sub quack was very bad. Great way to pay house note.
Hey bonita, sorry you had a sucky time with your treatment. But I didn't, and I'm NOT lying as you insinuated in another thread where you said 'finally someone is telling the truth', neither are the other people who had good tapers. Maybe if you had a better doctor and did some research before you started, you wouldn't have had such a shitty gig.

Did you read any of stuff in this thread? Maybe you should instead of following people around sniping at them and throwing threads off topic.

Just my opinion.

POSITIVE energy to you. -Mary
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Unread 01-30-2009, 09:44 PM   #91
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Learn from those who have struggled or failed, but, follow and mimic those who have not and who have succeeded.

We have a choice, we can follow a path which enriches our life and fosters enjoyment of life or we can get swallowed up in the daily struggle of negativity and self pity.

Those who had good experiences with Sub as part of their personal recovery plan did so for exact reasons, those who had bad experiences did so for exact reasons. Those who were able to taper will fewer problems did so for exact reasons, those who have struggled did so for exact reasons.

The choice of education and understanding is ours. Non of this is by chance.
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Unread 02-03-2009, 08:22 AM   #92
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Default tapering buprenorphine

Hello everybody!

It has been a long time since my last visit so a quick update is in place:

About two years ago buprenorphine was taken of the Dutch market because of it's potency for abuse; Subuxone (buprenorphine with Naloxone) was subscribed instead.
I'm over-sensitive for Naloxon so I did my best to get buprenorphine back on the market again. With the help of the Ministery of Health Department and Schering-Plough I succeeded in doing so at the end of 2007 with the re-introduction of Subutex 2 mg for the Dutch market.

But gradualy I noticed the posite effects of buprenorphine were becoming less and less (I took it off-label for mu complaints caused by EDS (Endorphin Deficiency Syndrome); buprenorphine is known to have a positive effect on depression and fatigue caused by low endorphin levels)

So I decided to stop Subutex and tried to enhance my dopamin and noradrenalin levels instead, seemed a good alternative to me and made it also possible for me to turn my back on the addiction department, because it's stigmatising (like you all will have expierenced).
I asked my docter to subscribe me bupropion (Wellbutrin) and take this together with a SSRI called escitolapram; so the reuptake of Serotonin, Noradrenalin and Dopamin is been taken care of, and in my case, it covers the lack of endorphin levels in my blood.
I must refer that I take DL-phenylalanine, chocolate and codliverextract to enhance my endorphin level aswell.

I decided to choose not for the long and often painfull road of tapering down but took Naltrexone instead: it nearly killed me and I had the worst night of my life!!! I guess opiate-levels were to high when I took it and I suspect I'm oversensitive for Naltrexone aswel as I am for Naloxone.

Downside of my expierience is that ldn (low dose naltrexone) was no option for me so I had to look a bit further for alternatives.
Even after a week of quiting the bup. doses of less than 1 mg Noltrexone still made me very sick!

Normaly a quick opiate-detox with Naltrexone is done in a clinic and I don't advise anyone to do this at home!!! (it actually might kill you!)
But I prefered rather to be very sick for a short period of time than to feel a little sick for a long period of time.

Hope that this information (or some of it) is usefull for some of you and I wish you all succes quiting the subs!

Stay strong!

Anastazar
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Unread 02-03-2009, 10:34 AM   #93
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Very cool Anastazar for getting subutex back! That had to be a ton of work.

Wow, that naltrexone gig must have really sucked. But cool that you're doing better! -Mary
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Unread 02-03-2009, 12:22 PM   #94
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Hi Mary,

It took me a lot of time, e-mails and phone-calls but the bottom-line was that the Health Department was not allowed to take buprenorphine of the market without offering a reasonable alternative.
For me Subuxone (Naloxone) was no option and, in my opinion, neither was methadone: to me this seems a good drug to treat people addicted for many years, but that wasn't the case.
Here in Holland we also have an Inspection of Healt Department and as soon as I warned them to take them to court they were very helpfull!
So was Schering-Plough, after a warning from the department, because at first it wasn't interesting for them to supply Subutex just for one person in Holland...

After all it took me more than a year because of changing procedures and the rather burocrattic way things work here in Holland, but I've heard that more people take advantage from my actions now.

Yes, the quicq Naltrexone detox was hell! I @#*# in my bed for the first time in my life, felt like I would die and almost did by almost drowning in my jaccuzi... (lost my consciousness in there without remembering how I got there....)

But it feels great to be clean now and I wish you all could feel like me!

Stay clean!

ps. a hot bath is a great way to loose 'the chills' when you're weaning off and enhances the stimulation of the 'feel good-receptors'.

By the way:

I noticed that many of you are dealing with post-withdrawel symptoms.
I must state that the way I'm dealing with them almost reduced them to zero.
Wellbutrin XR deals with the lack of energy (enhances the dopamin and noradrenalin levels in your system by slowing down their reuptake, even releases amfetamin en methamfetamin) and a good SSRI deals with depression)
You can also go for Effexor (serotonin and noradrenalin), this one also seems to have a molecule-structure like Tramadol and seems to have positive effect on your endorfin-level, seems to be a sexlife-killer though...).
Studies show that the combination of bupropion and a modern SSRI seems to be a bit more effective than Effexor but this may be different for individuals: everyone's reaction to these meds is different so I cant't speak in general, but it works for me!

Kick the mother%*#!* right in his teeth and fight him with his brothers!

ps. above mentioned anti-depressants have shown to be non-addictive
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Unread 02-03-2009, 10:27 PM   #95
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Good on you Anastazar!

Nice work. Please keep us all updated on the wonderful research. I will start Lexapro in a couple of weeks and hope it will assist in getting me out of my current depression. Good luck to you.

Auugh! I did not want to play into this game again but the tiny post stating "Wait to you wean" is a bit over the top. Is this written to mock those who have decided that suboxone is a good tool for them? I find this offensive and counterproductive to the intent of this forum. State what you think backed up by facts and your expirence but to taunt and mock is wrong. Don't you think folks here know that a taper may be painful?

Just because you had a quack and a fast painful taper, don't take it out on others please!

Glen
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Unread 02-03-2009, 11:16 PM   #96
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Hi Anastazar, thanks for checking in. I'm excited to hear that you're doing well! That must have been a horrible thing with the naltrexone. But that's great that you found the meds that work well for you.

Your work to get Subutex back in Holland is awe-inspiring. I'm sure there are many people who appreciate that dedication and hard work. That is such a great feat.

Thanks again for letting us know how you're doing and what you've done to help others.

Nancy
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Unread 02-04-2009, 07:40 AM   #97
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Hi Nancy! Thanks for your kind words!

Hi Swan! I don't know if your remarks are addressed to me, but I never said "wait till you wean off".
It's of significant importance for a treatment to succeed that a patient gets the treatment that fits him the most and is the one of his own choice! It is/was never my intention to disagree with other peoples choices and hope that everyone gets the opportunity to get the treatment that suits/fits them the best; therefor it was only my intention to show what worked/works for me, hoping to give some information that might benefit people who recognise themselves in my way of thinking.

I also bought myself some 'daylight-lightbulps' and I found that they make their contribution for me to get through these cold and dark winterdays in a positive way. Your endogenous serotonin system is influenced by the amount of daylight that's caught by your eyes: that's also the reason why some people get the "winterblues".
I put them every morning beside my laptop and half an hour should be sufficient to chase the blues away, and I must state that depression passed my door this winter! For persons who are not charmed of taking medication, and/or are displeased by side-effects, this might be a good alternative.

Only doing my best to make my contribution: there are so many ways to reach your goal! For some it might even be the best choice to stay on subs for life and I would never disagree with their choice!

One of the biggest snake-pits of post-withdrawal is depression, but with todays standards and possibilities there's no need to accept and/or suffer
the mother%$#!

Goodluck to you all!

Sorry ladies: ofcause I mean him/her!!!
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Unread 02-05-2009, 01:49 AM   #98
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Thank you Nancy, I overlooked that one!

Last year I started taking finasteride because my hair was becoming a bit thinner; I have beautiful long curly hair (if I'may say so of myself) and decided not to loose it and it worked! But at the downside I started to loose my apetite for sex, I even quit my girlfriend... Finasteride (Prophecia) reduces the effect of testosterone and now I realise this might have something to do with it. Like Mike says: you can divert your attention of kicking the subs. by enhancing levels of other substances in your blood, and like I did aswell.
I decided to stop the prophecia for a short period of time and found some testosterone pills that I took a few years ago when I was working out: let's see what happens! (but I won't take the testosterone for long because I don't like my #&&# to shrink).

Thank you Nancy, thank you Mike, I'll keep you posted!

ps. I woke up this morning with a boner!! (excuse my English) (I guess Mike is right about feeling eighteen again!)

The way I feel now, and my experience in the past, proved to me that you can influence the way you feel, think and behave by interfering with your brain chemistry. I also am convinced that there is a lot to gain in this field of science because abnormal brain chemistry has proven to be the cause/result for/of many psychiatric suffering.
I also blame your formar president Bush (mother#%&*#!) that his "war on drugs" slowed down the process of designing drugs that can make a positive contribution to the happyness and behavior of mankind!
I'm sure that, in the future, there will be drugs that could even cure his own insane way of thinking; so mankind could be spared a lot of suffering caused by actions of an idiot like him! It's only a matter of time!

ps. it was not my intention to abuse people who think mr. Bush was a good president (thank God they're a small minority), it neither is my intention to start a discussion about him, let the man r.i.p.
I stopped the testosterone because I red about the risks of it and because it makes me feel a bit too 'energized', I suppose I mustn't take too much drugs at the same time...
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Unread 02-14-2009, 07:07 PM   #99
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Brett's story: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20867
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Unread 04-05-2009, 06:40 PM   #100
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saxman's thread: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20890

ryantcx's thread: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21198
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