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Unread 04-09-2012, 09:01 PM   #1
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Today is my first day on subs. I'm new to this site. I was curious if anyone knows what my initial dose should be. I was using half a gram of tar a day for the last 4 months. Shooting up. The problem with the subs is they don't seem to hold me. I don't know if it's the generic type I have. The round ones with numbers on one side or it's just my head messing with me. Has anyone else had problems with the round white tabs ? They are the cheapest i could find at Costco, half as much as other pharmacies. I have no insurance and am paying cash. I'm new to this and new to subs and more than a little scared. Any advice out there ? I don't have to work till Friday and thought this the perfect time to switch. really, any advice or suggestions are completely welcome. I know the Doctor has his professional knowledge but no practical first hand experience. I MUST SWITCH, but am having a hard time doing so. Thank you for listening !!
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Unread 04-10-2012, 08:22 AM   #2
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Hi Saint Lawrence, welcome. There is no set initial for anyone. It should be the dose that stops your cravings and withdrawals.

When you started, were you in mild to moderate withdrawals?
Start out at a low dose - 2 to 4mg - wait an hour or so and take another 2mg if you still have cravings or withdrawals. Then continue until all symptoms are gone.
It can take up to two hours for full effect of the medication, so you need to be a little patient.

As for the generic, some people have found they don't get the absorption they did with the brand name Subutex - especially with the Roxanne generic; others have found no difference at all.

Here are some tips for taking Suboxone.
-No caffeine or nicotine for at least 30 minutes before taking your Suboxone – both may constrict the blood vessels that the medication is absorbed through.
-Right before taking it, rinse your mouth out with as warm water as possible – this may dilate the blood vessels for better absorption.

Let us know how you're doing today.

Nancy
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Unread 04-10-2012, 05:07 PM   #3
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Thank you Nancy...this morning due to fear and what I had I used a little bit of H. I know mybad. I am filled with fear. I have been talking to my sponsor about it. I actually am thinking of dropping everything and going into a detox to totally clean out my system before I am totally addicted to subs. I am using it to try to break the cycle of heroin addiction. It is completely unsustainable as you know. I feel like I have been sinking into the abyss and I can hear the waterfall in the distance. Now is the time to do something about it. I am 43 years old and had almost 5 years completely clean after a decade on Methadone. I do so well clean and so unwell when on anything. I know the differences between addiction and sustainability of a replacement drug. I don't know why I am having so much trouble switching. Does it take a few days ? I never had this problem before. I don't know if I'm just not done yet or I am so wrapped in fear that it causes me to relapse. Anyway....thank you the advice. Anything helps.
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Unread 04-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #4
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Nancy- I was also curious how to start a new post. Even this was a reply and piggy backing off someone else's post. How do i start a new post. I searched the site and couldn't figure out how to start a new one. Again Thank You so much !
Saint Lawrence
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Unread 04-10-2012, 07:31 PM   #5
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Hi Saint Lawrence, if you do decide to try Suboxone again, take a look at this link, it might be helpful in seeing how far into WDs you are:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf

Some people have had a little bit of a harder time going from IV heroin to Suboxone - it took more the first few days to stop the cravings and withdrawals and then they were able to reduce after they stabilized. A lot depends on the purity of the heroin too.

I think you're done or else you wouldn't be looking and trying to stop? Maybe there would be less fear if it worked right the first time? Just some things to think about.

Keep talking with your sponsor and talking here.

Your posts are in the right place, I moved your original post out of the other thread so more people could see it. This link might be helpful too, it explains how the forum is set up:
http://addictionsurvivors.org/vbulle..._threads_posts

Let me know if you have questions and let us know how you're doing.

Nancy
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Unread 04-10-2012, 09:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi Saint Lawrence, if you do decide to try Suboxone again, take a look at this link, it might be helpful in seeing how far into WDs you are:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf

Some people have had a little bit of a harder time going from IV heroin to Suboxone - it took more the first few days to stop the cravings and withdrawals and then they were able to reduce after they stabilized. A lot depends on the purity of the heroin too.

I think you're done or else you wouldn't be looking and trying to stop? Maybe there would be less fear if it worked right the first time? Just some things to think about.

Keep talking with your sponsor and talking here.

Your posts are in the right place, I moved your original post out of the other thread so more people could see it. This link might be helpful too, it explains how the forum is set up:
http://addictionsurvivors.org/vbulle..._threads_posts

Let me know if you have questions and let us know how you're doing.

Nancy
I am doing better today. I have new hope. I'm no Holy Roller but I am going to God or the Spirit of The Universe for hope and guidance. I know that I don't have all the answers otherwise I wouldn't be on a site like this looking for direction and hopefully to help others through my own experience. I have been at this for over twenty years. it's getting old. Heroin and other strong opiates no longer even help the way they used to. Minutes of euphoria followed by guilt and shame by knowing that I am not doing what I should be. Not to mention all the normal things such as wasted money and time. I worked at the coffee bar of an Alano Club in Southern California and have so much love and support. So many people love me and are routing for me and just want me to be clean. There are so many people out there I can help but am powerless to do so if I do not help myself first. My first stage is to get clean by any means necessary. The only upswing from years of opiate addiction is for some strange reason I look 15 years younger than I am. The slower metabolism I think. I truly want to be free. Free from drugs, free from the bondage of self. Freedom from fear and addiction. I suppose this is what all of us want in the end. I think so many of us self medicate to deal with our fear,emotional pain or feelings that we are not good enough. I have leaned a a lot through being involved in "the program" and around recovery. The thing that gets in the way is I believe in being totally free from all things that effect me from the neck up and after being a slave to Methadone for a decade I do not want the same from subutex. I was hoping to use it short term to break the using cycle but as of yet I haven't even been able to do that correctly. Today is a new start. Tomorrow an even grater start by starting my day with subs instead of a wake up fix. I'm lucky and have food in the fridge , a roof over my head and people who love me. What I am doing differently than I did when I was younger and in my 20's is being totally honest about my addiction with those in my family and in the program. I am not here to fool anyone, not here to con anyone, the old games do not work anymore. I don't want to be a secret or fake or pretend that everything is okay. It is not. I am a junkie, addict. That is priority number one to address. Then comes the real work. To look honestly at what makes me use. Further more what makes me use such a strong narcotic as opiates. I wish and shall be free. I will beat this demon and hopefully gain enough through this slip up and can utilize it to help another on this path to also find freedom. I am not free yet, but I hope this site and having a voice and hope will be enough to make a good start of it. I can say from personal experience that though we love opiates and there is no other drug that so completely cures all the emotional and physical pain that comes with life, being clean is so much better !!! Food taste better, the sunsets are brighter, sex is magical, everything is just a little brighter after being numbed out and slumbering in the arms of Morpheus. Opiates are a lie and unsustainable. This is coming from a person who used upon awakening. It is powerful but we are more powerful. I say these things not as advice or to preach but to speak also to myself and. I write this to all who will read and listen but mostly as a reminder to myself that I am worth it and freedom is possible for all of us. If you took the time to read this and it helps at all that is my only wish. Please stay safe everyone. You are not alone. you are loved. Stay strong and share with us your path. Thank You !
Saint Lawrence
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Unread 04-13-2012, 10:28 AM   #7
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Back to work today. Fear is the opposite of faith. I'm so sick of being afraid. Whether its being sick or anything really. I want freedom. I want to be clean.
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Unread 04-13-2012, 09:19 PM   #8
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Hi Saint Lawrence, how are you doing? Did you start Suboxone yet? You CAN do this.

Nancy
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Unread 04-14-2012, 01:04 AM   #9
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Hi Saint Lawrence, how are you doing? Did you start Suboxone yet? You CAN do this.

Nancy
Yes...I have hope. I am also going to reserve a bed in a local detox in the Los Angeles area. I was a slave to Methadone from age 27 till 38. I do not want that to happen again with another replacement drug. I will have my Rx if this fails but as I shared before I had almost 5 years completely clean and sober. My run has only been 6 months. Only...hahahaha. It is an eternity as any of you know. The only true way for me to be happy and productive to others and feeling right in my soul is to be be clean. I will use subs as a back up just in case I am not ready for some addicted insanity clause. So yes, I have started subutex and work went well today. It must take a few days to adjust because I can honestly say I do not feel normal. I am not high nor am I well. I do not know if it is fear, guilt or just change. we all know how much we like change. I really want to thank you Nancy. Thank you for your advice,responses and for caring. May I ask if you are also on subutex ? I'm sure you have told your story here. Perhaps you could send me a link. I feel a level of trust here. I try to listen to my inner instinct. Again, anything you have to offer I am eternally grateful for. This forum alone has given me a voice and hope that I am not alone and maybe can even help others on this journey. Thank you for anyone who may be listening. Please share with me anyone who wishes. Being alone is the worst and so unnecessary. I welcome any advice, support or corresponding sharing. I have been at this game of opiate addiction for over 25 years. Still alive and mostly healthy. No felonies and I still have hope. So really, if I can help anyone in anyway please allow me to do so. God Bless and good luck to you all. Recovery is not only a dream, it is not only possible, but attainable. I have done it myself so I speak from personal experience. I never thought I would get off Methadone. I have been free from that for over 8 years. Anything is possible in a World full of impossibilities. I am a freaking miracle and so are all of you. We can beat this. We CAN !!!!
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Unread 04-14-2012, 08:17 AM   #10
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Hi Saint Lawrence, it could take a few days to stabilize and level out on the medication - the trick is to take the lowest amount that stops cravings and withdrawals. But, in the beginning, take the same amount for about a week and then adjust from if necessary. If someone fluctuates their dose in the beginning, it's harder to stabilize because of the 37-hour halflife of the medication. I hope that makes sense.

I'm not a patient, I have a couple people very close to me who likely would be dead if they hadn't found Suboxone. So I'm here to lend support and find information for people. I do a lot of research, took a bunch of counseling classes, talk with doctors, patients, go to conferences to learn what I can to try to make this process a little easier for people if I can.

Are you definitely going to go to detox or will you try Suboxone first and then taper down and off? Sorry, I wasn't quite sure from what you said. But in any event, either way, something you might think about after you're off of Suboxone for at least 10 days is getting a prescription for naltrexone. You can use that as a safety net until you feel strong enough to go with out medication. For the 10 days, that's what is recommended for all opiates to make certain that there's nothing left in your system to avoid precipitating withdrawals. That might fit better with your desire to be opiate free. Just thought I'd throw that out there as a viable alternative.

You've beat this before and you absolutely WILL again.

Nancy
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Unread 04-14-2012, 11:01 AM   #11
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Thank you Nancy. I will most likely try to use the subutex for a week or two then go into a hospital. I have to pack up an apartment , put things in storage and have a talk with my job. I am willing to let everything go,which isn't much to get treatment. Like I said before the subs don't seem to work very well sometimes and it is so very frustrating. I really want to be free from everything but if the subs would hold me I would consider a tapering down. As it stands for now it is just to damn frustrating.I really just want to be free but as you can imagine am scared of the detox, scared of failure, just plain scared. I'm really working on that. I meet with my sponsor today to figure out the best course of action. I think what gets me in trouble is I work a double on Sat and Sun. 13 hour days waiting tables and I have a Hernia so using something really helps the fear and pain. this is the cycle I must break.
Again I truly thank you for your advice and support. I'm off to work here in a minute, just doing my best to do my best today.
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Unread 04-14-2012, 05:31 PM   #12
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Hi Saint Lawrence, I hope that you have a good meeting with your sponsor and let him know of your fears also.

Can you get the hernia taken care of soon - can you get any help from any free clinics in your area? That in and of itself sounds so painful, especially waiting tables. There's a clinical trial in Los Angeles, maybe that could be something to look into to see if you qualify? It looks like they're testing a way to repair them.
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...angeles&rank=3

If you have the Roxanne brand of generic Subutex, it could be that you need more. There are some people who are having problems with not getting the same absorption as the TEVA or brandname -tex.

Let us know how your day and the meeting with your sponsor went when you can.

Nancy
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Unread 04-15-2012, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi Saint Lawrence, I hope that you have a good meeting with your sponsor and let him know of your fears also.

Can you get the hernia taken care of soon - can you get any help from any free clinics in your area? That in and of itself sounds so painful, especially waiting tables. There's a clinical trial in Los Angeles, maybe that could be something to look into to see if you qualify? It looks like they're testing a way to repair them.
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...angeles&rank=3

If you have the Roxanne brand of generic Subutex, it could be that you need more. There are some people who are having problems with not getting the same absorption as the TEVA or brandname -tex.

Let us know how your day and the meeting with your sponsor went when you can.

Nancy
I need more hope. I feel like I am drowning in self. I miss me if that makes any sense to anyone out there.
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Unread 04-15-2012, 11:26 AM   #14
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I need more hope. I feel like I am drowning in self. I miss me if that makes any sense to anyone out there.
Thank you for the info on the hernia. I have an ultrasound tomorrow morning to see what is exactly wrong. I like any of us just want to be free. Free from addiction and fear. Just free.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 07:34 AM   #15
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Hi Saint Lawrence, did you meet with your sponsor? Please think about looking to see if you can find some no-cost/low-cost counseling. I think it could help with the feelings you're having now about drowning. Please check out this link for the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health:
http://dmh.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/d...ervices/adults
They have a phone number you can call to see if you can take advantage of any of their services.
"If you need immediate assistance or need to find services in your area please contact Access Center 24/7 Helpline at 1-800-854-7771."

Good luck today with the ultrasound. Let us know how you're doing when you get a chance.

Nancy
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Unread 04-16-2012, 12:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi Saint Lawrence, did you meet with your sponsor? Please think about looking to see if you can find some no-cost/low-cost counseling. I think it could help with the feelings you're having now about drowning. Please check out this link for the Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health:
http://dmh.lacounty.gov/wps/portal/d...ervices/adults
They have a phone number you can call to see if you can take advantage of any of their services.
"If you need immediate assistance or need to find services in your area please contact Access Center 24/7 Helpline at 1-800-854-7771."

Good luck today with the ultrasound. Let us know how you're doing when you get a chance.

Nancy
Thank you Nancy, you are an Angel and have helped so much !!! I go this morning for an ultrasound to check on my hernia (if that's what it is). Then i meet with my sponsor about going to detox. A lot of stuff that in reality is all of my own making. Time to start anew and walk through the door of a new life and freedom !!!!
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Unread 04-16-2012, 12:42 PM   #17
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Thank you Nancy, you are an Angel and have helped so much !!! I go this morning for an ultrasound to check on my hernia (if that's what it is). Then i meet with my sponsor about going to detox. A lot of stuff that in reality is all of my own making. Time to start anew and walk through the door of a new life and freedom !!!!
I will call these numbers today and seek the help I need, I promise. Again, thank you so much my friend.
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Unread 04-18-2012, 05:02 PM   #18
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Hi Saint Lawrence, just checking to see how things are going and if you found out anything from the ultrasound.

Let us know when you get a chance.

Nancy
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Unread 04-20-2012, 10:35 PM   #19
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Hi Saint Lawrence, just checking to see how things are going and if you found out anything from the ultrasound.

Let us know when you get a chance.

Nancy
No ultrasound yet. Please anyone out there help !!! I took 16 mgs of subutex today and I felt soooo sick. I put money on a bed for a detox and think maybe I should just continue to use until I get in. I know this is bad thinking but the subs just are not working for me. I feel desperate. Ugh. I just had to share and vent. I'm really freaking scared. Thanks for listening.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 01:24 AM   #20
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Hello Saint Lawrence, Of course you feel terrible because 16 mg is too much. Don't take anymore tonight and see how you feel tomorrow. I know you are looking forward to detox, but if you could stabilize on a lower dose of subutex that would take care of your w/d and cravings while you worked on the other things that you need to fix. You seem to be looking for a "quick" answer, and with addiction there is no such thing as quickly getting over it. OK?

You haven't used subutex properly so please don't say they are "not working" for you. They are not working for you because of the way you have been taking the medication. So if you could just take a deep breath and think about a proper recovery plan. Have you talked with your sponsor about all of this? I know you are scared, but you really don't have to fear treatment as long as you have some professional help to go along with the medication.

Continue talking with us and thinking through your options. I certainly do hope that you reconsider using until you go to detox. Get stabilized on the subutex and see how you feel. Stabilized means taking the lowest dose that stops w/d and cravings, and taking that amount daily for at least a week. I hope you will try that. Remember with 16 mgs of subutex on board you would not feel any other medication even if you tried.

I am sorry you feel so desperate. It is a terrible feeling, but it will go away as you work on it with the help of medication and support groups. Take a step back, try to get some sleep and let us know how you feel in the morning.

nan
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Unread 04-21-2012, 08:32 AM   #21
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Hi Saint Lawrence, I'm sorry you didn't have the ultrasound. Do you have it scheduled at all?

nan is spot on with her post; I can't add much to it. How much had you been taking prior to that? Have you talked with your sponsor yet?

Please let us know how you're doing.

Nancy
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Unread 04-21-2012, 10:28 AM   #22
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Hello Saint Lawrence, Of course you feel terrible because 16 mg is too much. Don't take anymore tonight and see how you feel tomorrow. I know you are looking forward to detox, but if you could stabilize on a lower dose of subutex that would take care of your w/d and cravings while you worked on the other things that you need to fix. You seem to be looking for a "quick" answer, and with addiction there is no such thing as quickly getting over it. OK?

You haven't used subutex properly so please don't say they are "not working" for you. They are not working for you because of the way you have been taking the medication. So if you could just take a deep breath and think about a proper recovery plan. Have you talked with your sponsor about all of this? I know you are scared, but you really don't have to fear treatment as long as you have some professional help to go along with the medication.

Continue talking with us and thinking through your options. I certainly do hope that you reconsider using until you go to detox. Get stabilized on the subutex and see how you feel. Stabilized means taking the lowest dose that stops w/d and cravings, and taking that amount daily for at least a week. I hope you will try that. Remember with 16 mgs of subutex on board you would not feel any other medication even if you tried.

I am sorry you feel so desperate. It is a terrible feeling, but it will go away as you work on it with the help of medication and support groups. Take a step back, try to get some sleep and let us know how you feel in the morning.

nan
Another day, maybe I didn't wait long enough and went into PAWS. I don't really know. I just want off this roller coaster. I had almost 5 years totally clean and sober and that is what I crave. I think I just get myself in a panic and make stupid mistakes. It's just a lot of fear. Some people say it might be the brand of generic I am taking. I don't really know. I don't want to discourage anyone. This medication has worked in the past for me. Within three weeks I should be in a detox and get all of this stuff out of my system. That is the only way I have been able to "kick" before. I have love and support but will lose all of that if I can't get myself under control. Thank you for the encouragement Nan. Just to let you know what I am trying to get off is half a gram of IV heroin use a day. People say I should wait until I am in full blown withdrawal before taking the medication. I have a few days off of work after the weekend,that is when I will try to totally switch. Is it true it takes a few days to adjust and no matter what I will feel dope sick for a few days ?
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Unread 04-21-2012, 03:22 PM   #23
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Hi Saint Lawrence, No it is NOT true that you will feel "dope sick" for a few days. At the correct dosage subutex/suboxone should stop the withdrawals and cravings within a couple of hours. You only have to be in mild to moderate withdrawals before starting with the medication. It is not required to be in full blown withdrawals. However, it is also important to make sure what you are feeling are withdrawals and not just extra physical effects due to the mental stress of the change. That is why we suggest following the COWS scale to determine the extent of the w/d's. I will attach the link to the scale for you to refer to.

Again, I will remind you to relax about this. OK? Detoxing will get substances out of your system but you will still have the issues to deal with. Detoxing will not fix those things. If you don't do the whole package you will be right back where you started from after some time.

You are going to be treated for a medical condition. You may need medication in order to achieve what you are looking for. That is not a big deal. Lots of people need medications for many things. Please try to not panic and look at your options. Don't let what "other people" think influence what you need to do in order to live addiction free. Your life is in danger when you are living a life in addiction. You need to take care of yourself and find solutions. Imo, if it takes medication to achieve that, so be it. I hope you can see it that way too and relax about the need for treatment. You will be doing a good thing for yourself!!

nan

Precipitate withdrawals and COWS scale:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf

Pros and Cons on inpatient detoxing:
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=22

What to expect the first day:http://www.naabt.org/education/what_bt_like.cfm
Feel:
The first feelings you will have on the first day of treatment will be at least the first three symptoms of withdrawal that are unique to you. They may be sweats, restlessness, anxiety, agitation, chills, stomach cramps, etc. This is good!! It means you will have a good experience and relief is just around the corner!
Twenty to thirty minutes after your first dose of at least 4 mg you will begin to feel those symptoms go away. You should be given a second dose approximately an hour later. After another 4 mg to 8 mg you will be very comfortable. Some doctors dose generously the first day or two. This will allow you to feel what is often described as “normal” in the first hour or so.
Caution:
Occasionally we see patients who believe that they are completely cured in the first week or so, because for the first time in years they feel normal every day and night. It is the medication that is making it possible to feel this way. Do not be hasty to get off of the medication. Opioid addiction is a brain disease. It is manageable because you can make the symptoms go away with Buprenorphine, but the disease itself does not go away that fast.
What Can I Expect on Day 1?
You will need to be in at least mild to moderate withdrawal. This means you will have dilated pupils, sweats, chills, nasal stuffiness, watery eyes, irritability and possibly stomach cramps and diarrhea. More specifically, you will have the first few symptoms that are unique to you. Do http://www.naabt.org/images/wbtil_calendar.jpgnot take the medication until you are certain you are in at least mild to moderate withdrawal. Tell your doctor what is typical for you when you are experiencing withdrawal.
You will learn how to take sublingual medication, which means medication that is taken under the tongue. There are large blood vessels under the tongue that give direct access to the bloodstream because there is only a very thin layer of skin covering those vessels. Relief of withdrawal symptoms is achieved quickly when this medication is administered under the tongue. It is less than 20% effective when swallowed and may even cause nausea. Take the time to learn how to take it properly. The taste is bitter so it may be useful to have a bottle of juice, soda, or some hard candy available to take after the medication is dissolved.
You will be given pills to take home or a prescription for take-home medication. You will need to take your medication the same time every day, and the full dose each time, unless your doctor has a reason to have you take it differently.
You will probably sleep very well the first night and the nights thereafter. The exception is if you have a history of sleep problems.

Last edited by nan; 04-21-2012 at 03:32 PM..
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Unread 04-21-2012, 08:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by nan View Post
Hi Saint Lawrence, No it is NOT true that you will feel "dope sick" for a few days. At the correct dosage subutex/suboxone should stop the withdrawals and cravings within a couple of hours. You only have to be in mild to moderate withdrawals before starting with the medication. It is not required to be in full blown withdrawals. However, it is also important to make sure what you are feeling are withdrawals and not just extra physical effects due to the mental stress of the change. That is why we suggest following the COWS scale to determine the extent of the w/d's. I will attach the link to the scale for you to refer to.

Again, I will remind you to relax about this. OK? Detoxing will get substances out of your system but you will still have the issues to deal with. Detoxing will not fix those things. If you don't do the whole package you will be right back where you started from after some time.

You are going to be treated for a medical condition. You may need medication in order to achieve what you are looking for. That is not a big deal. Lots of people need medications for many things. Please try to not panic and look at your options. Don't let what "other people" think influence what you need to do in order to live addiction free. Your life is in danger when you are living a life in addiction. You need to take care of yourself and find solutions. Imo, if it takes medication to achieve that, so be it. I hope you can see it that way too and relax about the need for treatment. You will be doing a good thing for yourself!!

nan

Precipitate withdrawals and COWS scale:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf

Pros and Cons on inpatient detoxing:
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=22

What to expect the first day:http://www.naabt.org/education/what_bt_like.cfm
Feel:
The first feelings you will have on the first day of treatment will be at least the first three symptoms of withdrawal that are unique to you. They may be sweats, restlessness, anxiety, agitation, chills, stomach cramps, etc. This is good!! It means you will have a good experience and relief is just around the corner!
Twenty to thirty minutes after your first dose of at least 4 mg you will begin to feel those symptoms go away. You should be given a second dose approximately an hour later. After another 4 mg to 8 mg you will be very comfortable. Some doctors dose generously the first day or two. This will allow you to feel what is often described as ďnormalĒ in the first hour or so.
Caution:
Occasionally we see patients who believe that they are completely cured in the first week or so, because for the first time in years they feel normal every day and night. It is the medication that is making it possible to feel this way. Do not be hasty to get off of the medication. Opioid addiction is a brain disease. It is manageable because you can make the symptoms go away with Buprenorphine, but the disease itself does not go away that fast.
What Can I Expect on Day 1?
You will need to be in at least mild to moderate withdrawal. This means you will have dilated pupils, sweats, chills, nasal stuffiness, watery eyes, irritability and possibly stomach cramps and diarrhea. More specifically, you will have the first few symptoms that are unique to you. Do http://www.naabt.org/images/wbtil_calendar.jpgnot take the medication until you are certain you are in at least mild to moderate withdrawal. Tell your doctor what is typical for you when you are experiencing withdrawal.
You will learn how to take sublingual medication, which means medication that is taken under the tongue. There are large blood vessels under the tongue that give direct access to the bloodstream because there is only a very thin layer of skin covering those vessels. Relief of withdrawal symptoms is achieved quickly when this medication is administered under the tongue. It is less than 20% effective when swallowed and may even cause nausea. Take the time to learn how to take it properly. The taste is bitter so it may be useful to have a bottle of juice, soda, or some hard candy available to take after the medication is dissolved.
You will be given pills to take home or a prescription for take-home medication. You will need to take your medication the same time every day, and the full dose each time, unless your doctor has a reason to have you take it differently.
You will probably sleep very well the first night and the nights thereafter. The exception is if you have a history of sleep problems.
Thank you. I really truly just want to get into detox, go to meetings and get back in the sober life. Drugs are such a dead end. I have a lot of support in the AA community in my area. I just need the first step. Get my body clean. If this fails then I will certainly look at the possibility that I may have to be on subutex treatment. I have another question. Since I will have a bed in detox within the next three weeks is three weeks long enough that I will be severly addicted to the subutex ? Will it make my detox take longer. Or is just 2 or 3 weeks on subs not quite long enough to have to go through a long protracted withdrawal ?
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Unread 04-21-2012, 09:21 PM   #25
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Saint Lawrence, Others can answer your question better than I. But I will say you will not become "addicted" to subutex no matter how long you would be on it. Most people do not become addicted to the medication. You can become physically dependent on any number of medications and suboxone/subutex belongs in that category-meaning one needs to taper off. You will be safer taking the medication subutex for the next three weeks rather than risking your life with heroin. Detox is detox as far as I know. You said, "Drugs are a dead end", suboxone/subutex could be considered "good drugs"-like any other medication that one needs to live. I don't consider heart medication-"drugs"-it is a medication that will keep the ole heart ticking properly. Many people mistake "addiction free" as the same as "drug free". There is a big difference. You wouldn't turn down heart medication if you were having a heart attack, would you(?) just so you could be "drug free".

I get on my soapbox only because I think it is so important to understand just exactly what the medication, suboxone/subutex, is designed to do. It gets a bad rap way too often. That is not to say that medication assisted treatment is for everyone. I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with medicated assisted treatment. It treats a medical disease which is addiction. Addiction left untreated in any way will lead to death.

It is perfectly understandable that you are wanting to try the inpatient detox. Nothing wrong with that if you feel that is the way for you to deal with the disease. It is also good that you know, and continue educating yourself, about the option of using medication assisted treatment if the detox does not give you what you need.

I hope I have answered part of your questions anyway. I am sure someone will be on to tell you why detox wouldn't be any different for you if you take suboxone for the next three weeks, or continue using heroin. Your body will be going through withdrawals regardless of what was in your system.

Just remember the goal is living addiction free, not just having all foreign chemicals removed from your body. It is going to take work on your part, no matter which you choose, in order for you to be successful. I do wish you the best and keep posting as you have any questions or just need to talk.

nan

Switching one addiction for another??: link attached

http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=1

Last edited by nan; 04-21-2012 at 09:24 PM..
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Unread 04-22-2012, 03:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by nan View Post
Saint Lawrence, Others can answer your question better than I. But I will say you will not become "addicted" to subutex no matter how long you would be on it. Most people do not become addicted to the medication. You can become physically dependent on any number of medications and suboxone/subutex belongs in that category-meaning one needs to taper off. You will be safer taking the medication subutex for the next three weeks rather than risking your life with heroin. Detox is detox as far as I know. You said, "Drugs are a dead end", suboxone/subutex could be considered "good drugs"-like any other medication that one needs to live. I don't consider heart medication-"drugs"-it is a medication that will keep the ole heart ticking properly. Many people mistake "addiction free" as the same as "drug free". There is a big difference. You wouldn't turn down heart medication if you were having a heart attack, would you(?) just so you could be "drug free".

I get on my soapbox only because I think it is so important to understand just exactly what the medication, suboxone/subutex, is designed to do. It gets a bad rap way too often. That is not to say that medication assisted treatment is for everyone. I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with medicated assisted treatment. It treats a medical disease which is addiction. Addiction left untreated in any way will lead to death.

It is perfectly understandable that you are wanting to try the inpatient detox. Nothing wrong with that if you feel that is the way for you to deal with the disease. It is also good that you know, and continue educating yourself, about the option of using medication assisted treatment if the detox does not give you what you need.

I hope I have answered part of your questions anyway. I am sure someone will be on to tell you why detox wouldn't be any different for you if you take suboxone for the next three weeks, or continue using heroin. Your body will be going through withdrawals regardless of what was in your system.

Just remember the goal is living addiction free, not just having all foreign chemicals removed from your body. It is going to take work on your part, no matter which you choose, in order for you to be successful. I do wish you the best and keep posting as you have any questions or just need to talk.

nan

Switching one addiction for another??: link attached

http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm?ID=1
The detox is about two weeks, the hospital stay, I just want to come out and be able to work. I dont want to have to kick the kick as they say. You are right though I cant see myself on Heroin for 3 more weeks. They say less is more. Do you think a small dose can hold me if I use it properly. I have four days off from work after tomorrow. I think I am being a little bit of a sissy when it comes to being sick. I have never quite felt like this before. I think it is god telling me that what I am doing is not the correct option. Any suggestions how to start taking it Monday . My doctor told me to take a very high dose and I cannot say I completely trust that. I have been doing half a gram a day of H. I was hoping I could get by on a small dose or do a quick taper myself before going into detox. Like I said I prob have 3 weeks before a bed opens up. The bed is paid for. I am going in. Now it's survival and staying alive until then. I know your not a doctor. i am just asking your opinion. What I have read seems to say that for a day or two I will have to deal with being a little uncomfortable no matter what, especially on a dose that seems not too high to me. Rapid detox for 3 weeks then a hospital stay ? sounds rather sane if I can do it.
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Unread 04-22-2012, 07:16 AM   #27
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Hi Saint Lawrence, make sure you get an after-care program set up for when you leave detox. Detox isn't treating the addiction - that uncontrollable, compulsive behavior despite negative consequences - it just gets the opiates out of your system. Think about getting naltrexone for when you leave, and get your sponsor and all the support you can surround yourself with and keep posting.

As for starting Suboxone again, please read this link:
http://www.naabt.org/documents/NAABT_PrecipWD.pdf
Page 2 had the Clinical Opiate Withdrawal Scale, you may want to go as far into WDs as you can stand before taking the medication. Start low - 2 to 4mg, and wait an hour or so because it can take up to 1.5 to 2 hours for full effect. See how you're feeling and if you still have symptoms, take 2 or 4mg more, wait, and keep doing that until you are craving and withdrawal free. Don't worry about how much you are taking, especially because for some people they need more of the generic -tex than they would have the brandname -tex. Plus, not everyone absorbs the medication the same. This is for the Suboxone pills:

•Absorption

...Buprenorphine is also readily absorbed following sublingual administration, with approximately 55% (range: 15–95%) of a dose absorbed systemically.


From: http://www.medscape.org/druginfo/mon...387004&secid=9

As you can see, there's a vast range for the absorption rate of Suboxone. Here are a couple of things that have helped others get better absorption, if you want to try them:

• Tips for taking Suboxone.
-No caffeine or nicotine for at least 30 minutes before taking your Suboxone – both may constrict the blood vessels that the medication is absorbed through.
-Right before taking it, rinse your mouth out with as warm water as possible – this may dilate the blood vessels for better absorption.


Bottom line, go by how you feel. What you also might think about doing is stopping the -tex a few days before you go into detox. Buprenorphine has a half life of around 37 hours, so stopping before you go in will give you a head start on the process.

I hope this is helpful. Let us know.

Nancy
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Unread 04-23-2012, 01:05 AM   #28
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Goodluck with your detox. Nancy has given u some great advice on here so listen to it. I understand u want to be clean of all drugs but if u detox and then feel like ur going to relapse please let suboxone work for you before going back to ur drug of choice. U sound like ur ready to be clean and sober so go for it and stick with it. Lets us know how ur detox goes.
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Unread 04-23-2012, 03:42 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Want2beclean View Post
Goodluck with your detox. Nancy has given u some great advice on here so listen to it. I understand u want to be clean of all drugs but if u detox and then feel like ur going to relapse please let suboxone work for you before going back to ur drug of choice. U sound like ur ready to be clean and sober so go for it and stick with it. Lets us know how ur detox goes.
Thank you so very much. I'm still on the waiting list so I have a few more weeks to deal with my currant situation. I was heavily involved in AA so I know that I will have to immerse myself in the program again. It is the only thing that has ever worked for me. I had almost 5 years and I can do it again !!! Now just how to best survive until a bad opens up and hopefully the two weeks is enough to clean out my body. Any opinions ? If I am on subs for 3 weeks will two weeks be long enough to "kick" it out of my system ? I know everyone is different, I thought someone here might have experience if that is long enough to take it where it will take months to feel normal physically again ?
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Unread 04-23-2012, 10:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Saint Lawrence View Post
Thank you so very much. I'm still on the waiting list so I have a few more weeks to deal with my currant situation. I was heavily involved in AA so I know that I will have to immerse myself in the program again. It is the only thing that has ever worked for me. I had almost 5 years and I can do it again !!! Now just how to best survive until a bad opens up and hopefully the two weeks is enough to clean out my body. Any opinions ? If I am on subs for 3 weeks will two weeks be long enough to "kick" it out of my system ? I know everyone is different, I thought someone here might have experience if that is long enough to take it where it will take months to feel normal physically again ?
Yes I have experience with both detox and long-term sub.

I was addicted to heroin for years and tried nearly all kinds of detoxes mostly cold turkey. I detoxed so often that most of the time I was addicted I was in withdrawal, not high. None of the detoxes (literally hundreds) worked for very long. I even did a sub detox in a clinical study, and relapsed a few weeks later. The last thing I wanted to do was lengthen my drug use with some replacement therapy, I wanted to be done with it once and for all. Iím betting this feeling is familiar to you and you just want to be done with it, start fresh and be clean of all drugs. This was not only my view but the view of 3 people I knew who detoxed with me a few times. I learned something that changed my life, my three friends didnít and are dead now. I learned that addiction is a series of brain changes and the only way to fix the addiction is to fix these changes. I learned that detox does nothing to fix the brain changes, nothing. This is why we feel like shit afterwards, long after the drugs are out of our system and eventually give in to the depression and pain and relapse. This is why detox treatments generally donít work. The only way to get better is to fix the brain changes and that takes time and involves learning to live your life without mind altering drugs. It about changing everything in your life thatís related to drugs learning new things and forgetting old ways. Itís this changing behavior that fixes the brain. Some people can do it without medication, people in jail, people who find Jesus, people who become immersed in AA, but this isnít for everyone and it wasnít for me either. There is also a big problem with this method, you are constantly fighting cravings, withdrawal, and depression making it very hard to make the changes you need to change your brain. This is why such methods fail for most people time after time.

There is another way, sub, at the right dose, stops cravings, depression, and withdrawal, this doesnít cure you or fix the brain but it allows you to make the big changes. As you improve your life and make the changes the brain slowly changes and at some point is no longer an addicted brain. At this time you now only have the physical dependence to deal with, which in comparison is easy to deal with by slowly tapering off the sub. Chances are by the time you are ready to taper off you are at a low dose because most people require less and less sub as the brain heals. This is what I did and after 7 years on sub tapered off without missing a single day of work, that was almost 5 years ago and am doing fine ever since - something that I never could do when I was just detoxing. There is a lot of misinformation out there that will make it hard to make a good decision, but once you get down to the truth and understand what it is you are fighting everything falls into place. If you end up going through detox a few more times remember this post and remember there is another way, donít lose hope.

Good luck,
Sub
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Unread 04-23-2012, 11:42 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sub-Zero View Post
Yes I have experience with both detox and long-term sub.

I was addicted to heroin for years and tried nearly all kinds of detoxes mostly cold turkey. I detoxed so often that most of the time I was addicted I was in withdrawal, not high. None of the detoxes (literally hundreds) worked for very long. I even did a sub detox in a clinical study, and relapsed a few weeks later. The last thing I wanted to do was lengthen my drug use with some replacement therapy, I wanted to be done with it once and for all. Iím betting this feeling is familiar to you and you just want to be done with it, start fresh and be clean of all drugs. This was not only my view but the view of 3 people I knew who detoxed with me a few times. I learned something that changed my life, my three friends didnít and are dead now. I learned that addiction is a series of brain changes and the only way to fix the addiction is to fix these changes. I learned that detox does nothing to fix the brain changes, nothing. This is why we feel like shit afterwards, long after the drugs are out of our system and eventually give in to the depression and pain and relapse. This is why detox treatments generally donít work. The only way to get better is to fix the brain changes and that takes time and involves learning to live your life without mind altering drugs. It about changing everything in your life thatís related to drugs learning new things and forgetting old ways. Itís this changing behavior that fixes the brain. Some people can do it without medication, people in jail, people who find Jesus, people who become immersed in AA, but this isnít for everyone and it wasnít for me either. There is also a big problem with this method, you are constantly fighting cravings, withdrawal, and depression making it very hard to make the changes you need to change your brain. This is why such methods fail for most people time after time.

There is another way, sub, at the right dose, stops cravings, depression, and withdrawal, this doesnít cure you or fix the brain but it allows you to make the big changes. As you improve your life and make the changes the brain slowly changes and at some point is no longer an addicted brain. At this time you now only have the physical dependence to deal with, which in comparison is easy to deal with by slowly tapering off the sub. Chances are by the time you are ready to taper off you are at a low dose because most people require less and less sub as the brain heals. This is what I did and after 7 years on sub tapered off without missing a single day of work, that was almost 5 years ago and am doing fine ever since - something that I never could do when I was just detoxing. There is a lot of misinformation out there that will make it hard to make a good decision, but once you get down to the truth and understand what it is you are fighting everything falls into place. If you end up going through detox a few more times remember this post and remember there is another way, donít lose hope.

Good luck,
Sub
Thank you Sub
I was just worried that being on sub would just prolong my physical detox. As I said I cannot really continue where I am at now. Half a gram a day and trying to work. I'm a freaking' waiter and in the public eye. All the stuff that comes with addiction. Last week I took up to 16 mgs of subs and was still really sick. I did 4 mgs at a time and waited 2 hours between dose. It scared me how sick I felt. I know alot of this is in my head and fear is ruling my decision making. Everything is crumbling around me. You know the feeling. For the first time in my life I really don't understand why I am in so much fear. I don't even feel like me. That is why as you said I just want to get it over with. Maybe I am being too much of a sissy and just deal with switching and the uncomfortable feelings. My main fear was going into a detox but with subs getting out still really sick which will most likely lead to relapse. I know Heroin will take a week or two then no more strung out. I know there is no magic pill or quote or answer. It is going to take a lot of work to stay clean and sober. My bed is paid for, I am going into detox no matter what. what I am concerned with now is how to function and survive until then. Maybe a quick sub taper ? The only answer for me is to be completely clean. I have no insurance, a hernia and may not be able to do the kind of work I have been doing. I don't think I can afford to stay on subs for a long time. also that experience last week scared the heck out of me. I don't know why the sub didn't hold me. I know in reality 2 to 4 mgs should hold me fine. Half a gram a day isn't that terrible of a habit, but you nailed it on the head. I have all these underline issues that are causing me to not make the switch. I have to find something deep inside myself to hold onto and be strong. Did you experience a hard time switching from H to subs ? May I ask if you are off subs now or still on treatment ?
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Unread 04-23-2012, 12:08 PM   #32
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Thank you Sub
I was just worried that being on sub would just prolong my physical detox. As I said I cannot really continue where I am at now. Half a gram a day and trying to work. I'm a freaking' waiter and in the public eye. All the stuff that comes with addiction. Last week I took up to 16 mgs of subs and was still really sick. I did 4 mgs at a time and waited 2 hours between dose. It scared me how sick I felt. I know alot of this is in my head and fear is ruling my decision making. Everything is crumbling around me. You know the feeling. For the first time in my life I really don't understand why I am in so much fear. I don't even feel like me. That is why as you said I just want to get it over with. Maybe I am being too much of a sissy and just deal with switching and the uncomfortable feelings. My main fear was going into a detox but with subs getting out still really sick which will most likely lead to relapse. I know Heroin will take a week or two then no more strung out. I know there is no magic pill or quote or answer. It is going to take a lot of work to stay clean and sober. My bed is paid for, I am going into detox no matter what. what I am concerned with now is how to function and survive until then. Maybe a quick sub taper ? The only answer for me is to be completely clean. I have no insurance, a hernia and may not be able to do the kind of work I have been doing. I don't think I can afford to stay on subs for a long time. also that experience last week scared the heck out of me. I don't know why the sub didn't hold me. I know in reality 2 to 4 mgs should hold me fine. Half a gram a day isn't that terrible of a habit, but you nailed it on the head. I have all these underline issues that are causing me to not make the switch. I have to find something deep inside myself to hold onto and be strong. Did you experience a hard time switching from H to subs ? May I ask if you are off subs now or still on treatment ?
I was doing about 10 bags of H a day (don't know how many grams that is). For me the switch was easy and I left the appointment feeling like I had never done drugs in my life. It took 20mgs for me at first, but found 16mg was enough after within a couple weeks. It takes a while to build up in your system unless you take enough right away and its very important to be in withdrawal before you start. It sounds like you did things right but maybe you needed more? Do you remember how big your pupils were after taking then 16mgs? I can tell you that at the right dose, you don't feel medicated you feel normal, actually normal to good.

My advice would be that after detox to find a doctor who will give you a low dose of sub. After detox you will not need much 1 or 2mgs will probably be enough, which would be free with the film discount card. Then use that time to reduce stress, disassociate with people related to drugs, get finances organized, living arrangements, fix relationships, attend AA if you like, get everything squared away inn you life that you have control over, then start a slow taper off of the sub. That way you can make all those changes in your life without fighting cravings and everything that goes along with detox the whole time.

One thing you need to realize is addiction is progressive so each detox will be more difficult than the time before. comparing past detox experiences with current ones will always result in the last one being the hardest. This is what makes sub necessary and also explains the stories about it being so hard to get off of, its actually easier to taper off of, but it leaves behind the more serious brain changes of the progressed disease, if not effectively changed while in treatment. I used to be able to stop H go through 3 days of withdrawal and be fine afterward. That's because I wasn't addicted then I was only physically dependent. Once addicted, which affects a whole different part of the brain, I felt shitty long after the 3 days, sometimes for weeks. While on sub you can fix the addicted part, then deal with the physical dependence at the end, which isn't that difficult. What's hard is dealing with both at the same time.

Your detox will decrease your physical dependence, but do nothing to fix the addiction. This means you'll only require a low dose of sub, and while on it work on the addiction part, which involves changing behavior and the things listed above, then when you taper off sub you'll only need to deal with the physical dependence which is done by slowly tapering. This is a plan to come out of this without having to fight cravings for the rest of your life. I don't need to go to meetings, i don't even think about heroin anymore. It's like it all happened to someone else. You can do it, its all about understanding exactly what it is you are actually fighting, its not drugs its the changes to the brain.

Good luck,
Sub
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Unread 04-23-2012, 12:25 PM   #33
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Why do u think 4mg is enough to hold u? I only took perks about 150mg a day which I'm sure is not as strong as herion. I take 16mg a day of sub films but remember it took me a week to feel stable. I still think about pills every now and then mainly when I'm stressed out. Are u still doing the half a day? If so stop today and start the sub again tmrw. U sound like u really want to be clean so let this med work for u and quit thinking it's not. Wait until u start to feel a little bad and start around 4mg them a few hrs later take 4 more and so on until the icky feeling is gone. I really hope u can do this then a week before ur bed opens take less and less. Please if u go into detox and get out and want to use then go to sub not herion. U wouldnt need much once u detox anyway. This drug gives u the chance to get it together and let ur brain heel.
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Unread 04-23-2012, 12:27 PM   #34
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Unread 04-23-2012, 08:34 PM   #35
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Sub-Zero, Great job on explaining what addiction is and how to properly use sub. I noticed you did not really get a response from St. that maybe he had read your post, and maybe had a better idea of what to do. I explain what you explained everyday at work, so usually I leave it up to someonelse to explain what addiction is. So, this post is mainly a friendly reminder to St. Lawerence to really take the time to read Sub-Zeros' post and save youself alot of frustration, time, and hopefully your life! Steve
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Unread 04-23-2012, 09:17 PM   #36
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I was doing about 10 bags of H a day (don't know how many grams that is). For me the switch was easy and I left the appointment feeling like I had never done drugs in my life. It took 20mgs for me at first, but found 16mg was enough after within a couple weeks. It takes a while to build up in your system unless you take enough right away and its very important to be in withdrawal before you start. It sounds like you did things right but maybe you needed more? Do you remember how big your pupils were after taking then 16mgs? I can tell you that at the right dose, you don't feel medicated you feel normal, actually normal to good.

My advice would be that after detox to find a doctor who will give you a low dose of sub. After detox you will not need much 1 or 2mgs will probably be enough, which would be free with the film discount card. Then use that time to reduce stress, disassociate with people related to drugs, get finances organized, living arrangements, fix relationships, attend AA if you like, get everything squared away inn you life that you have control over, then start a slow taper off of the sub. That way you can make all those changes in your life without fighting cravings and everything that goes along with detox the whole time.

One thing you need to realize is addiction is progressive so each detox will be more difficult than the time before. comparing past detox experiences with current ones will always result in the last one being the hardest. This is what makes sub necessary and also explains the stories about it being so hard to get off of, its actually easier to taper off of, but it leaves behind the more serious brain changes of the progressed disease, if not effectively changed while in treatment. I used to be able to stop H go through 3 days of withdrawal and be fine afterward. That's because I wasn't addicted then I was only physically dependent. Once addicted, which affects a whole different part of the brain, I felt shitty long after the 3 days, sometimes for weeks. While on sub you can fix the addicted part, then deal with the physical dependence at the end, which isn't that difficult. What's hard is dealing with both at the same time.

Your detox will decrease your physical dependence, but do nothing to fix the addiction. This means you'll only require a low dose of sub, and while on it work on the addiction part, which involves changing behavior and the things listed above, then when you taper off sub you'll only need to deal with the physical dependence which is done by slowly tapering. This is a plan to come out of this without having to fight cravings for the rest of your life. I don't need to go to meetings, i don't even think about heroin anymore. It's like it all happened to someone else. You can do it, its all about understanding exactly what it is you are actually fighting, its not drugs its the changes to the brain.

Good luck,
Sub
I completely relate to your experience and story. That is exactly what I did . I was in detox in December and had a doctor prescribe a small dose of subs if i got itchy. I tapered myself down to 1 mg then got a bright idea and used. Here we are 4 months later and worse off than before. This is why i believe i really should be chemically free. What do they say insanity is ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results ? So tomorrow morning I will not use. I will wake up and wait as long as I can and start off with a very small dose. I want to be as clean as possible before going into the hospital. I really have a lot of support. I'm no cult member or think AA/NA is the answer for everyone but I have so much support there. I helped run the coffee bar of an Alano Club for 3 years and literally know hundreds of people on a first name basis and much love and support. Many of these people are closer than family to me. My sponsor is an amazing man, a Buddhist teacher and has become a dear friend. I have so many of the best teachers around me. So what do you think of my plan to wait until I am as sick as I can stand and start off with just 2 or 4 mgs ? Like I said I have at least 2 weeks if not 3 until a bed opens up and want to be at the lowest level of chemical dependency possible. I am not asking for medical advice just your personal opinion. A low dose has worked for me in the past but that was with only using for a week or two and not a few months. Do you think it possible if I wait long enough a small dose can hold me ? Or, do you think I should start higher and decrease over the next week ? Again just asking your opinion. Thank you so much for listening and helping !!
SL
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Unread 04-23-2012, 11:04 PM   #37
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Sub-Zero, Great job on explaining what addiction is and how to properly use sub. I noticed you did not really get a response from St. that maybe he had read your post, and maybe had a better idea of what to do. I explain what you explained everyday at work, so usually I leave it up to someonelse to explain what addiction is. So, this post is mainly a friendly reminder to St. Lawerence to really take the time to read Sub-Zeros' post and save youself alot of frustration, time, and hopefully your life! Steve
I have read all posts I am taking all of this to heart and truly value everyone on here. I have not used today and tomorrow I am going to try another generic that so many people say works better as absorption rate. I'm not delusional that this is an easy quick solution. I really reach out here because though I have been an addict off and on for decades subutex is a new thing for me. Perhaps I had expectations and that is my problem. Today I feel much more optimistic and am switching over completely. So I want you all to know I check this site a few times daily and none of your words are falling on deaf ears. I truly thank all of you !!! Without this as a tool in my recovery I feel like I would of gone mad or been even more unwise in my behavior. So once again, thank you all so very much. I will keep you posted how tomorrow goes.
SL
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Unread 04-24-2012, 08:23 AM   #38
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Hi Saint Lawrence, I think waiting until you're as far into withdrawals as you can stand is a good plan. But, please don't go by mg when you take the medication. Go by how you feel. Especially with the generic because some people don't get the same absorption. You could utilize those tips I posted earlier it to see if it will help with absorption. Here they are again:

Here are some tips for taking Suboxone.
-No caffeine or nicotine for at least 30 minutes before taking your Suboxone – both may constrict the blood vessels that the medication is absorbed through.
-Right before taking it, rinse your mouth out with as warm water as possible – this may dilate the blood vessels for better absorption.

Also remember that no one has the same absorption rate - it varies greatly as I posted earlier, averaging 55% - that's why it's important to not go by how much you take, but how you feel.

How far in advance will you know when you can get into detox?

Let us know how you're doing.

Nancy
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Unread 04-24-2012, 11:52 AM   #39
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Hi Saint Lawrence, I think waiting until you're as far into withdrawals as you can stand is a good plan. But, please don't go by mg when you take the medication. Go by how you feel. Especially with the generic because some people don't get the same absorption. You could utilize those tips I posted earlier it to see if it will help with absorption. Here they are again:

Here are some tips for taking Suboxone.
-No caffeine or nicotine for at least 30 minutes before taking your Suboxone Ė both may constrict the blood vessels that the medication is absorbed through.
-Right before taking it, rinse your mouth out with as warm water as possible Ė this may dilate the blood vessels for better absorption.

Also remember that no one has the same absorption rate - it varies greatly as I posted earlier, averaging 55% - that's why it's important to not go by how much you take, but how you feel.

How far in advance will you know when you can get into detox?

Let us know how you're doing.

Nancy
I will probably have a week to 10 days notice of when I can get in.
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Unread 04-24-2012, 12:18 PM   #40
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Hi Saint Lawrence, that's good that you get that much notice. Once you hear when you're going, start tapering down for a few days and then totally stop maybe 3 days before. With the 37-hour halflife and depending on what dose you're on/have been on, it might not be too uncomfortable and you'll have a head start on the detox.

Nancy
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Unread 04-24-2012, 01:02 PM   #41
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Hi Saint Lawrence, that's good that you get that much notice. Once you hear when you're going, start tapering down for a few days and then totally stop maybe 3 days before. With the 37-hour halflife and depending on what dose you're on/have been on, it might not be too uncomfortable and you'll have a head start on the detox.

Nancy
They offer two kinds of medicated detox , either subutex or methadone. They dose you for only 4 days 4,3,2,1, mgs and that's it. They will prob give me phenobarbital for 3 days also. Again, I don't really know what I am doing but I thought detox would be a good start then maybe a program or sober living for 2 or 3 months. I just want this to end. I do so well when I am sober. It was a broken relationship followed my a terrible rebound one that started me using. Self medicating. It worked for a week or two and here we are months later in full blown addiction and fear. I have certainly learned my lesson this time. I surrender to win. I am an addict and can't take anything that effects me from the neck up. I never thought I would be in my mid 40's and going through this again. Live and learn I suppose. Thank you so much Nancy. I look forward to your posts and support. It is greatly appreciated !!!
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Unread 04-25-2012, 09:54 PM   #42
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Hi Saint Lawrence, detox is a very good start, then you can have them help you with an after care plan - such as a sober living arrangement. If you can get ahead of the taper before you go in, I think that would be a big advantage for you. You'd need less and could concentrate on any therapy they'd have while you are there.

Let us know how you're doing when you can.

Nancy
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Unread 04-26-2012, 12:45 PM   #43
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Hi Saint Lawrence, detox is a very good start, then you can have them help you with an after care plan - such as a sober living arrangement. If you can get ahead of the taper before you go in, I think that would be a big advantage for you. You'd need less and could concentrate on any therapy they'd have while you are there.

Let us know how you're doing when you can.

Nancy
Thank you for everything Nancy !!!
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Unread 04-26-2012, 12:47 PM   #44
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Thank you for everything Nancy !!!
Everything works fine. Again Thank You very much !!!
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Unread 04-28-2012, 11:15 AM   #45
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Good morning freedom! I read your posting on "my thread". I am so sorry that you are still going in circles over this. I am just going to give you my opinion, and be completely straight forward about it.

Detox is going to be detox whether you continue with H or you are on suboxone. Period. It is not going to be a pleasure trip no matter. The difference is how you will be living day-to-day until detox. If you continue with the H you will not only be miserable physically but also mentally. You don't want to keep doing that to yourself! Not to mention the danger with injecting H!

If you switch over to suboxone and you need 16 mg,which I don't think you will need that much, it will not be anymore of a problem when you go to detox than what you are doing right now with the H. Like NancyB said you can drop down on the dosage in the days right before detox which will allow the suboxone's half-life to diminish the amount you have in your system.

You are worried because you are afraid of what the switch over might be like. I understand that. But you should be worried about what you are doing to yourself by injecting H everyday. You have the suboxone available to you and I really think if you can get over the hurdle and start the medication you will be relieved. You are tearing yourself up over this indecision. Look deeply within yourself and see if your indecision is based on the fact that you do not really want to stop the H. I hate to see you beating yourself up so bad.

I do hope that you will find my words as an encouragement. To me it is a no-brainer-take the suboxone until you can go to detox. The bottom line is you need to make a firm decision one way or the other and just stick with it until detox. I hope you will choose to use the medication rather than H.

nan
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Unread 04-28-2012, 11:41 AM   #46
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Good morning freedom! I read your posting on "my thread". I am so sorry that you are still going in circles over this. I am just going to give you my opinion, and be completely straight forward about it.

Detox is going to be detox whether you continue with H or you are on suboxone. Period. It is not going to be a pleasure trip no matter. The difference is how you will be living day-to-day until detox. If you continue with the H you will not only be miserable physically but also mentally. You don't want to keep doing that to yourself! Not to mention the danger with injecting H!

If you switch over to suboxone and you need 16 mg,which I don't think you will need that much, it will not be anymore of a problem when you go to detox than what you are doing right now with the H. Like NancyB said you can drop down on the dosage in the days right before detox which will allow the suboxone's half-life to diminish the amount you have in your system.

You are worried because you are afraid of what the switch over might be like. I understand that. But you should be worried about what you are doing to yourself by injecting H everyday. You have the suboxone available to you and I really think if you can get over the hurdle and start the medication you will be relieved. You are tearing yourself up over this indecision. Look deeply within yourself and see if your indecision is based on the fact that you do not really want to stop the H. I hate to see you beating yourself up so bad.

I do hope that you will find my words as an encouragement. To me it is a no-brainer-take the suboxone until you can go to detox. The bottom line is you need to make a firm decision one way or the other and just stick with it until detox. I hope you will choose to use the medication rather than H.

nan
Thank you so much nan...that is the only real decision to make. Does it take a few days to adjust ? Is starting on my day off of work the best way to do this ? My Doc said to take way too much in my opinion. I just got a script for the new hi tek generics. those Roxannes just didn't seem to make any difference. I just am asking your opinion but what do you think a proper replacement dose would be to start with. I'm not asking for medical advice, just your opinion.
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Unread 04-28-2012, 11:56 AM   #47
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Thank you so much nan...that is the only real decision to make. Does it take a few days to adjust ? Is starting on my day off of work the best way to do this ? My Doc said to take way too much in my opinion. I just got a script for the new hi tek generics. those Roxannes just didn't seem to make any difference. I just am asking your opinion but what do you think a proper replacement dose would be to start with. I'm not asking for medical advice, just your opinion.
It's funny or not funny how manic addiction can make a person. I don't even feel like me half the time anymore. It's so ridiculous. I'm getting off this roller coaster and staying clean. It's so much easier to stay clean than to get clean. I have heard that many times and i totally get it now. I am not a bad person. Just sick right now. I chose the name freedom because that is what I seek to be and am far from that right now. We only get one life. This is not how I am supposed to be living it.
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Unread 04-28-2012, 12:01 PM   #48
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Ok freedom, here you go! Read through the attached link which gives you very good information. Then ask any questions you might have. From what I have observed in the past you are going to be so relieved once you start on the medication. Good for you! Time to get off the merry-go-round. Be so, so thankful that you are taking advantage of the help that is available to you. I am proud of you and absolutely you are NOT a bad person. You have a medical condition that you are seeking treatment for. You have a cheering section here.

nan

http://www.naabt.org/education/what_bt_like.cfm
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Unread 04-28-2012, 12:04 PM   #49
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Freedom, one more thing. My daughter switched from methadone to suboxone a few years ago. She took her last dose of methadone on Friday and started suboxone on Monday. We had to drive 90 miles to her dr, I drove down but after she was inducted on the meds she drove the car home and was feeling great. So I have experienced it first hand and have personally seen how it all works. That is why I advocate for this treatment.

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Unread 04-28-2012, 12:08 PM   #50
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It's funny or not funny how manic addiction can make a person. I don't even feel like me half the time anymore. It's so ridiculous. I'm getting off this roller coaster and staying clean. It's so much easier to stay clean than to get clean. I have heard that many times and i totally get it now. I am not a bad person. Just sick right now. I chose the name freedom because that is what I seek to be and am far from that right now. We only get one life. This is not how I am supposed to be living it.
I think part of my fear too is that if the subs work I will put off the detox and just continue with medicated treatment. I'm sure everything I am feeling and thinking, many others have before me. It just feels good to be able to talk about them.
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